Limit amount of mules

[SHA2048]

There's a fine line between normal gameplay and abuse, I think that it's fine to allow multiclienting, yet we shouldn't allow it  without moderation.
There have been reports of people clogging up LPQ with mules, camping popular farming spots and bosses, and in general taking advantage of a large number of number of mules logged in at the same time.
I think that the limit to simultaneous mules should be 3. Enough to prevent people from going solo KPQ, but still letting people use HB mules, store mule, and easy transferring of items between mules.
I hope this feature could be easily implemented as i think it would let newer players progress easier when they don't need to compete for popular farming spots, get into kpq easier, and farm bosses more frequently.
What are you thoughts?

Thanks for reading

[RexZet]

I personally don't see this as an issue at all at least for kpq and lpq. KPQ and LPQ are not that active most of the time. The last 1-2 week might been the most active kpq been. Even LPQ where I been running a lot for 1-2 week only had 1 day where there was 3 parties going around in a rotation for channel. Its a none issue, maybe there be a few hours where this is an issue but most of the time one or both pq channel are always open. Also people also put lot of time and effort into all those mules. Each LPQ mules takes good 15-20 hours to lvl up to 35.

As for bosses idk, but any worth while boss be high lvl and if people lvling them that high again the put in the time and effort into it to have a mule to place there. Not to mention only bosses that drop good stuff are like what MM, ZMM, and jr rog which your limit won't even do anything about since 3 mules at 3 spots.

Finally grinding spots, again your limitation doesn't do anything about that. I haven't been to fog but don't think I ever heard fog was clogged up with buff mules and everyone seem pretty open to party people. And aside from fog I don't think any other spot really get filled up (beside 94th but that's solo spot)

The only thing this would affect is kpq and lpq and its a none issue because the main issue with kpq and lpq is getting a party not like the 1 or 2 people who occasionally solos them.

[SHA2048]

Bosses like MM and ZMM and Jr balrog are constantly being camped by mules, While i do understand that making mules that can take them down takes effort, it prevents other people from doing those bosses, you gain much more than the effort you put into it. Same with LPQ, yeah it takes time to level up an LPQ mule, but you're preventing other people from playing the game if you just go in with all your mules. 

[SHA2048]

Almost forgot about all the FM mules that are popping up, people just like to have a ton of mules taking up FM spots

[RexZet]

As I stated your limitation on 3 mules does absolutely nothing against people camping MM, ZMM, Jr rog. just 1 mule from 3 people easily camp it. not to mention 3 mules 1 person can still easily camp them. Same for FM spots, not that fm spots matters consider there so few fm to look through its 5mins to search them all. Stuff that will sell still sell and its over priced its not going to sell just coz its in fm 1.

Again for LPQ its a none issue because there such rare time where 3 party runs lpq even if you include people soloing or using mules. It happens maybe once a week or less depending on people flowing in and out of lpq. Same goes for kpq. 

[SHA2048]

3 People camping MM, ZMM, Jr Rog, is much much better than 1 person camping them all. You're saying LPQ is a none issue but there already have been reports of people clogging LPQ with their mules and it's only gonna get worse with more people playing.  I disagree with you on the FM thing, stuff in FM1 sells much more than other FMs unless you advertise it a lot, People are too lazy to go through all the FMs to check the best price. 

 

Just because it's not happening all the time in LPQ doesn't mean we can't do stuff to prevent it.

[Celia]

Multiclient is anti-community and community is a pretty big deal in MMORPGs. 

[RexZet]

I been hanging around lpq for the last like 2-3 weeks and this has been an issue all of twice. Once I didn't even witness but had people talk about happening. A second time would be today for maybe all of 2-3hr one guy was soloing lpq. 

Rest of the time? Mostly 1 party running if that. 1 time few days ago we had 3 active party going and we were rotating going in for several hours which has nothing to do with the mule situation. 

I play what I feel probabaly most active server time of like 10am to past midnight pst. Unless this is all happening during early early morning US time I can say from being at lpq for last 2-3 weeks it's not an issue. And wasn't for a long time before that.

An actual fix would be simply give each channel more instance of pq instead. There no fix for the boss thing as it's a problem with open world boss in general. People will bitch about people camping it with or without mules.

As for fm I never had issue selling scrolls in fm 2-4 at market price. I see plenty of fm1 never sell coz they over price. As for non scrolls the market is so small it hardly matter where it is people will find it when it's like the only one. I mean there defintely slight advantage but at most is your stuff take half a day to a day longer to sell.

Same thing as when it was brought up before. The decision on mules need to be made when sever launched not now when people have already thrown into tons of work into them. It's literally a few people who don't want to have to wait like 10mins per lpq for like a few hours  to screw over someone else who likely put over 100+ hr into leveling those mules.

[SHA2048]

For what purpose would you need more than 2 high level mules active at the same time? I only see this as an opening for abuse. 

[Ellyria]

Just because it doesn't happen often doesn't mean it's not a problem.

1) For PQs it's very anti-newbie, having a 3 mule limitation would encourage that person to party with the people who are actually around and promote PQ activity since it's so ded as you say. Just cuz ppl are so anti-social about PQing with others doesn't mean they should be allowed to hog a channel in a server that only has TWO CHANNELS

2) So what if you've spent countless hours training your mules to PQ level? What about the hours spent by those active players in PQs? They don't matter anymore just cuz you put in more time and feel entitled to do whatever you want?

3) For FM it's quite selfish honestly, and FM1 spot is crucial to sell things that like pots, tower scrolls, DM scrolls, etc... that people need to use now and look for them in FM1 first. I also agree that FM1 sells better overall if you have decent prices up.

[Maru]

not have experienced camping all field bosses, but still thinking its nice to suggest stop camping it. Though restricting mules for max 3 doesnt sound like a fundamental solution. Ppl who camp mm/zmm/jr. balrong still can get all of them with 3 clients. 

[SHA2048]

32 minutes ago, Maru said:

not have experienced camping all field bosses, but still thinking its nice to suggest stop camping it. Though restricting mules for max 3 doesnt sound like a fundamental solution. Ppl who camp mm/zmm/jr. balrong still can get all of them with 3 clients. 

If you haven't experienced boss camping you must not have checked the bosses much, MM and ZMM always dead and Jr. Balrog seems to not exist... By limiting the mules they can't just glance at the other window to see if the boss spawned, keeping a timer is more effective than randomly checking, but mules are much much less effort than keeping a timer.
If they can only use 2 mules + main they need to 'waste' these mules on bosses and can't use them for other stuff.

[Sauron]

I can see your point but this should have been done at the launch of Phoenix or when it got more popular back in december? 
 

About the zmm/mm, i dont really kill thoose But you guys Saying it is mules camping it? Then they probaly dont even level thoose Chars and grinding with their main or something. Just get above the campers lvl and ks him. 
 

About the fm spots i dont really care but i personaly never check fm 1 first because i know its filled with 2-3 merchers clogging up 50% of the spots with overpriced stuff wich wont sell anyway. I always had my shit selling better in fm 2-3 than 1.

[SHA2048]

we don't have  timemachine, the more we wait to make this change the more hours will be wasted on mules

 

[Kradia]

Like others have stated, such changes are too late to implement considering you'd completely have people's efforts wasted. These changes would hurt the server and its population more than it would benefit the server.

Besides a specific number of mules allowed is very "awkward". Why exactly 3? How would that even be moderated? For such systems to work, it would constantly be required to have GMs policing the game and making sure nobody cheats. 

The more realistic approach is to open channel 3 if issues really are as bad as you think you are. But from personal experience, I haven't stumbled upon such issues at all with mini bosses like ZMM/MM. Now, idk about the state of LPQ but every time I hear from people around LPQ (or any PQs for that matter), the issue isn't so much that both channels are taken but that there aren't enough people to party.

Finally, I've always been of the opinion that if a person is willing to control multiple characters in PQs, they should be allowed to. PQs quickly become a chore and I can imagine it's even worse when you're controlling more than one character. Also I think the server benefits from all the scrolls those people bring to the market. It makes the server feel more alive. 🙂 

[SHA2048]

You wouldn't need GMs constantly policing the game, you could just restrict the number of connection from a single IP.

People should've known it's not smart to put effort into mules given that you need to have a 3rd party software to be able to use them.

It's not even strictly allowed to use sandboxie for mules. 'Anything that is used to help give an advantage...'. It would fall under the 3rd party software rule.

 

[WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW]

sandboxie argument irrelevant since people will just buy laptops/extra pcs. 
 

mule fm chars also irrelevant since fm barely filled up. 
 

PQ and boss thing def annoying but I agree w posters above... It’s too late. Arnah already implemented a rule briefly before realizing it’s a bad idea. Simplest solution, agree w kradia, open more channels/instances (which already looks like it could happen). 
 

also, I think people underestimate how easy it is to snipe mm/zmm. It’s low chance that 1 person could get all 4 of them every spawn unless nobody else does them. 

 

sauron, your stuff doesn’t sell better bc room 2-4 they sell better bc your stuff is usually cheaper than everyone else’s lol but I agree fm spots irrelevant

[Bellocringe]

I agree that something should be done. I completely understand the argument about sandboxing, and of course have taken advantage of that opportunity myself. It may be late to change something regarding this situation, but late is better than never in a lot of cases. In my opinion, such sandboxed mules should be limited to one or none. The PQ clogging thing is a serious issue whether or not a PQ isn't "usually" full. World bosses may have always had the problem of being camped by a select few people, but it shouldn't be so simple to essentially plug up such valuable resources server-wide by a single user. The channel number definitely puts the problem in the spotlight, since today we're dealing with only 2 channels vs 20 channels back in the day. Whether or not someone can "just buy another computer" to get around a sandbox limitation is silly. For one, maintaining a physical system is nothing like the ease of  just opening another process on a single system, and two, separate systems have always been necessary for playing together in the same household, and I don't think that should change, whether or not we have many instances of that here on Phoenix. It just doesn't seem healthy for Phoenix to drift towards that modern Maple mentality of needing so many characters in order to be playing correctly.

[SHA2048]

1 hour ago, WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW said:

sandboxie argument irrelevant since people will just buy laptops/extra pcs. 

And you think buying a PC just for muling isn't getting around the rules? It's the same as sandboxie.
 

1 hour ago, WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW said:

mule fm chars also irrelevant since fm barely filled up. 

Yeah just a casual 7+ FMs filled up.

1 hour ago, WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW said:

PQ and boss thing def annoying but I agree w posters above... It’s too late. Arnah already implemented a rule briefly before realizing it’s a bad idea. Simplest solution, agree w kradia, open more channels/instances (which already looks like it could happen). 

 

Yeah just encourage people to make more mules and legitimize it because you don't want your 30 mules to be unusable....
It's late now yes but tomorrow it will be even later, You knew full well that it's a shady thing to do and you still put time into it so that's the price you pay.
 

1 hour ago, WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW said:

also, I think people underestimate how easy it is to snipe mm/zmm. It’s low chance that 1 person could get all 4 of them every spawn unless nobody else does them. 

If it's so easy to snipe why do you have your mules there all the time? It's significantly harder to catch the boss spawning where there is a muler just waiting inside the map waiting for it....

[Ellyria]

I don't think the hours spent on mules would be wasted... the point was not to limit the number of mules 1 person can have, more to limit the amount of online chars at once. This would only affect those ppl who have more than 3 K/LPQ mules and buff mules I believe (but buff mules are a different matter, perhaps only limit the number of same IP connections only in PQs?)

Also I'm sure we would all like the server to improve, just cuz a rule wasn't implemented from the beginning doesn't mean it can never be added

Realistically adding a ch is just like putting on a bandaid instead of fixing the problem, and it would seperate the ~100 players we have even more

Edited May 30, 2020 by Ellyria

[techno1004]

@SHA i appreciate you starting a discussion but cant help but feel that youre strawmanning a bit...

1. And you think buying a PC just for muling isn't getting around the rules? It's the same as sandboxie.

No I dont think that is getting around the rules. 
Macroing, Key Weighting, Third Party Software, hacking, exploiting, and WZ Edits.
While playing Phoenix, you are not allowed to hack or exploit. Anything that is used to help give an advantage such as using a CLB, Cheat Engine, Macros, Key weighting, bots, and scripting are not allowed

Buying another computer to play is, in my opinion, not against the rule. I think this may be subjective interpretation of the rule. If it wasnt allowed I think Arnah would've included that speficically. 

2. Yeah just a casual 7+ FMs filled up.

In my opinion, that is not a lot based on the number of players we have.

3. Yeah just encourage people to make more mules and legitimize it because you don't want your 30 mules to be unusable....
It's late now yes but tomorrow it will be even later, You knew full well that it's a shady thing to do and you still put time into it so that's the price you pay.

I think it's a very small minority that would consider buff mules as "shady". Regardless, I'm not a fan of buff mules either man.... i just saw others do it and thought it might be fun to play some new chars (that would also be useful later). Yes, maybe we can have a rule, I'd still play but it would be less enjoyable (for me). One of the benefits of Phoenix, imo, is the sense of freedom.

4. If it's so easy to snipe why do you have your mules there all the time? It's significantly harder to catch the boss spawning where there is a muler just waiting inside the map waiting for it....

What are you talking about? I have my main sitting there that's it. What mules? I think you are mistaking other people's accounts for mine (this has happened to me countless times).
And I dont agree... it is only slightly harder not significantly lol. Each channel has a 40-70min window it can spawn... how can 1 person "hold" 4 channels with a 20-30min window? Unless they all spawn exactly at the 40min mark it's not possible and can be sniped. Second, its a boss... you fight for it, if youre stronger you might win. (although seems like boss loots are broken sometimes at the moment, have already informed arnah)

[SHA2048]

5 minutes ago, techno1004 said:

@SHA i appreciate you starting a discussion but cant help but feel that youre strawmanning a bit...

1. And you think buying a PC just for muling isn't getting around the rules? It's the same as sandboxie.

No I dont think that is getting around the rules. 
Macroing, Key Weighting, Third Party Software, hacking, exploiting, and WZ Edits.
While playing Phoenix, you are not allowed to hack or exploit. Anything that is used to help give an advantage such as using a CLB, Cheat Engine, Macros, Key weighting, bots, and scripting are not allowed

Buying another computer to play is, in my opinion, not against the rule. I think this may be subjective interpretation of the rule. If it wasnt allowed I think Arnah would've included that speficically. 

2. Yeah just a casual 7+ FMs filled up.

In my opinion, that is not a lot based on the number of players we have.

3. Yeah just encourage people to make more mules and legitimize it because you don't want your 30 mules to be unusable....
It's late now yes but tomorrow it will be even later, You knew full well that it's a shady thing to do and you still put time into it so that's the price you pay.

I think it's a very small minority that would consider buff mules as "shady". Regardless, I'm not a fan of buff mules either man.... i just saw others do it and thought it might be fun to play some new chars (that would also be useful later). Yes, maybe we can have a rule, I'd still play but it would be less enjoyable (for me). One of the benefits of Phoenix, imo, is the sense of freedom.

4. If it's so easy to snipe why do you have your mules there all the time? It's significantly harder to catch the boss spawning where there is a muler just waiting inside the map waiting for it....

What are you talking about? I have my main sitting there that's it. What mules? I think you are mistaking other people's accounts for mine (this has happened to me countless times).
And I dont agree... it is only slightly harder not significantly lol. Each channel has a 40-70min window it can spawn... how can 1 person "hold" 4 channels with a 20-30min window? Unless they all spawn exactly at the 40min mark it's not possible and can be sniped. Second, its a boss... you fight for it, if youre stronger you might win. (although seems like boss loots are broken sometimes at the moment, have already informed arnah)

IDK where to start with your retarded comment

[RexZet]

Its a none issue and none solution.

Casually 7+ fm full really? I can tell you right now that  fm 5/6 is almost always dead with maybe random 1-3 people inside. FM 3/4 are usually 3/4 full with spots opening up all the time. FM1/2 are only two that are constantly packed. FM 7 is 1/2-3/4 full coz people decided to go there since its ez to access and people spend effort advertising. I personally experienced FM7 going from few people to lot more as people got used to going there more often. That's 4-5 full fm combined not casually filling up 7+ fm. Btw I check all off fm at least like 4-5 times through out the day.

I don't boss but I went out of my way to ask some people who does mm and zmm somewhat regularly and their replies been mules has not been an issue. Do you actually see mule or you just assume its mules because their always dead when you go? Because I can tell you that even if the server allowed no mules they still be dead almost every time you go. That's just how these bosses work on maple. I played plenty of server with 1 account rules and all the good drop/exp bosses are still camped to hell and back.

And also regarding pq as well all you guys have to go off are from the few people complaining. If you actually been sitting waiting for lpq for the past month you would know that the biggest issue for pq is finding a damn party than mules in the party or anything. I been going through both kpq and lpq for the past month and issues where 1 person solo was caused any kind of disruption happened like twice in the past month in lpq for few short hours. Literally few people crying very loudly about not being able to pq as if there was no one there for a few hours, which btw the bitching was about how how several people were using their mules to hold a lpq channel for the party in ch 1(which was false they were just doing it very slowly) 

 

Finally even if I take a step back and lets pretend these are all an issue wtf does this change even fix? 3 mule limitation fixes absolutely nothing. First FM spot, just 3 spot is  more than enough to sell anything you want. Drop rate here aren't high unless you're just putting shit price so nothing sell there no situation you need 3 stores. The only time where that would be useful is if you're selling something like all cure/summon stone where you can buy endless amount but i don't see fm 1 filled with all cure/summon stone shops. Not that its even easy to get 3 spots or more in fm 1 during the rush when server goes back up.

Second PQ, again what does 3 mule limitation even do aside from screwing the few people that occasionally come on to solo lpq? people who use mules to buffer party usually only have 1-2 anyways because its tedious af to level them. So absolutely fucking nothing changes about the current situation.

If mule camping boss is a thing then 3 mules still means all 3 bosses camped or at least 3/6 channels camped. Nothing changes at all.

None of these are an issue and even if they were this isn't remotely a good solution.

Edited May 30, 2020 by RexZet

[SHA2048]

This is the last comment i write for retarded posters that just repeat what they say over and over.

Yes 7 FMs is a lot, and that's how many we have full usually when the server hasn't just been restarted.
Even if it wasn't a lot, what's the point in encouraging people to mule in FM? Has anyone ever came to FM and said "there's not enough retarded fake shops, i want the FM to be more cluttered"?

Literally all the people i asked about the MM / ZMM situation in-game said that the boss camping is nasty. How convenient it is that the people who post on this thread saying it's a non issue are the ones with an army of mules, Maybe you don't see the mules because you are the one muling? How many mules does one need? Fine there's not a lot of DKs, so you get an HB mule, if you're really eager to make good exp an HS mule. Why would you need more than 3 characters online at a time except for ABUSE? 

Literally no amount of you saying "i t s   a   n o n e    i  s  s  u  e" Will make that true. Yeah people are using an obscene amount of mules and getting around a game restriction to gain advantage, but because i benefit from it then it's a none issue.

 

If you got a better solution for this then please say it, actually don't because it's probably trash and just clutters other good ideas like techno's countless brilliant suggestion threads. 
Limiting the amount of mules to 3 is a compromise between infinite amount of mules, and no mules at all.
3 Makes it so you can't solo KPQ / LPQ. It REDUCES (not eliminates the problem but makes it smaller) the issue of boss camping, yes you could obviously still do it but it will require MORE EFFORT and will give new and weaker players a bigger chance to do bosses.

 

[RexZet]

Love the way you dodge all the key points but I'll make one last post too since its pretty pointless to keep going on.

Again there no full 7 FM idk where you're pulling that out of your ass from. Anyone who check fm at all can tell you maybe 4-5 full fm. FM 5/6 are dead there barely any shops in there if at all. Just because fm 7 has people doesn't means fm 1-6 are full. FM7 is lot easier to access than 5/6 why people set up shop there. 

Boss camping is nasty with/without mules. Anyone who played maple and try to boss would know. Not to mention bosses are free for all. You can easily camp on your main and easily ks any mules camping there. Even without mules you still have to camp and wait for respawn either way unless you think without mules there just be mm/zmm waiting for you when you log on, reality check its not. Btw people I ask about mm and zmm all farm it on their main to ensure they don't get sniped.

Its allow by the game how is it abuse? Its abuse because you think its abuse? No, people were willing to put in the god damn time to make those mules because that's what the server fucking allows. You can do the exact same thing. Bitching about people spending time making mules to do stuff is like me bitching about how quit can farm faster than me because he put in more time than me to level up higher.

Again this limitation does fucking jack all to help even if any of those things are an issue.