The Meta of High Level Two-handed Swords

[Kradia]

In a vanilla setting, the meta for Crusaders and White Knights is that you use a Devil’s Sunrise (Lv. 90) until you manage to find yourself a Stonetooth (Lv. 100). Stonetooth is the sword with the fastest Att. Speed. This makes the Beheader (Lv. 100) completely irrelevant, as it has a slower attack speed. This also makes the end-game sword, Dragon Claymore (Lv. 110) irrelevant, which is an even bigger issue considering how hard it is to obtain.

Every 10 levels, items should always be an upgrade. Lower level items being better does not make sense. Because two level 90 and 100 swords exist, there should be a difference depending on how they are obtainable.

This is what the swords should look like:

 Devil’s Sunrise (Vanilla)

Level 90
Weapon attack: 95 (avg)
Att. Speed: Normal(6)
Obtainable from: Grim Phantom Watch, Dark Cornian, Headless Horseman, Jr. Newtie, Zakum3 (Currently), Female Boss(V54)

 Berzerker (Buffed to co-exist with Devil’s Sunrise)

Level 90
Weapon attack: 97 buffed from 90 (avg)
Att. Speed: Normal(6) buffed from Slow(8)
Obtainable from: Green Cornian, Pianus

Between these two level 90 swords, Berserker is harder to obtain, which is why it should be slightly better than its counterpart.

  The Beheader (Buffed to co-exist with Stonetooth)

Level 100
Weapon attack: 100 
Att. Speed: Normal(6) buffed from Slow(7)
Obtainable from: Black Kentaurus, Manon, Griffey, Zakum3, Horntail(?)

  Stonetooth Sword (Vanilla)

Level 100
REQ DEX: No DEX requirement from 120 DEX (buff)
Weapon attack: 101 
Att. Speed: Fast(5)
Obtainable from: Black Crow

Because Devil’s Sunrise(Lv. 90) has a better Att. Speed than Beheader, Beheader is irrelevant. A level 100 weapon should be better than a level 90 weapon. Since Stonetooth is a Black Crow exclusive item, it’s only fair that it’s just slightly better than the other level 100 sword. The DEX requirement should be removed on Stonetooth for the item design to be more streamlined and make more sense. Faster weapons means higher DPS, which effectively helps with Zakum and Horntail.

 Dragon Claymore (Buffed)

Level 110
Weapon attack: 105
Att. Speed: Fast(5) buffed from Normal(6)
Obtainable from: Craftable in Leafre

If Claymore has the vanilla Att. Speed, Normal(6), it is effectively a worse weapon than the Stonetooth. Considering that Claymore is the highest level sword in the game and currently near impossible to obtain, it’s supposed to also be the best.

To end this thread, I'd like to mention that I realize there are a lot of cases like these in Maple with odd item design. Especially with lower level itemization. But the higher level itemization matters more, because it is supposed to be "final" until more content is added. "It's an MMO and powercreep is inevitable" is not an excuse, but pure laziness and greediness by Nexon.

If you disagree, feel free to share your opinion and we can discuss. If you agree, let me know why you agree instead of just posting +1.

Edited April 14, 2021 by Kradia

[DannyAmeri]

+1 
It's a buff to non DK/Hermit class.

If this is Fast(5) speed implemented to lv90 and 100 swords, I believe similar changes should be added to lv90 and 100 Bows/Crossbow as well.

[CattleRage]

As the lone semi-active Axe Sader, I'm a bit triggered.

[DannyAmeri]

1 hour ago, CattleRage said:

As the lone semi-active Axe Sader, I'm a bit triggered.

Honestly, I do not mind a buff to Axes/Blunt & Str Bandit, but it seems like its not happening in Phoenix. :pepehands:

[opman]

22 hours ago, Kradia said:

Stonetooth Sword (Vanilla)

Level 100
REQ DEX: No DEX requirement from 120 DEX (buff)
Weapon attack: 101 
Att. Speed: Fast(5)
Obtainable from: Black Crow

Because Devil’s Sunrise(Lv. 90) has a better Att. Speed than Beheader, Beheader is irrelevant. A level 100 weapon should be better than a level 90 weapon. Since Stonetooth is a Black Crow exclusive item, it’s only fair that it’s just slightly better than the other level 100 sword. The DEX requirement should be removed on Stonetooth for the item design to be more streamlined and make more sense. Faster weapons means higher DPS, which effectively helps with Zakum and Horntail.

 Dragon Claymore (Buffed)

Level 110
Weapon attack: 105
Att. Speed: Fast(5) buffed from Normal(6)
Obtainable from: Craftable in Leafre

If Claymore has the vanilla Att. Speed, Normal(6), it is effectively a worse weapon than the Stonetooth. Considering that Claymore is the highest level sword in the game and currently near impossible to obtain, it’s supposed to also be the best.

I think most people assume the higher the weapon, the more powerful it should be than the previous tier weapon, however this is not usually the case for warriors, especially swords n spears (folks who used sky skis before know this). Warriors have 2 categories of types of sword's they'd carry around, 1 for grinding, 1 for bossing. Not just swords, but this applies to spears too, but it won't be discussed here since sky ski's aren't in game.

As having faster attack speed is prioritised more than a 3-4 att boost when it comes to different scenarios such as BOSSING, most often. This is due to the DPS aspect mainly as well as being able to dish out the maximum damage before behind knockedback by the boss skills and having to walk back to the attack spot. Since zak has been attempted, lets put zakum arms (top left) in retrospect, im sure most, if not all warriors get annoyed being knockedback/down and having to walk back to the spot to continue their short ranged attacks.
GRINDING on the other hand, such as goby or leafre monsters, a higher weapon attack is more favourable to the warriors as the need to 1 hit ko the monsters is mostly often the case needed/necessary to reduce skills cast and being hit by the monsters, reducing pot expense in the long run. for that we have lvl 110 2H sword.

1st off lets compare lvl100 2H swords, as u can see Beheader is 2 speeds slower than Stonetooth and thats perfectly fine, even if stonetooth requires 120dex. Seeing how someone back in the days ran calculations and actual in-game data, a faster Stonetooth for warriors most oftenly makes up for areas that a slower and higher attack sword (lvl100 and 110) when it comes to bossing. Even if we were to buff stonetooth, we should not totally remove 120dex, but just lower the requirements down to 60-70dex or so, considering this is a 3rd job server and most items and content are out of reach yet. This is to encourage warriors to get  a zhelm, a good overall and other dex gears such as cape and aim towards a perfect warrior shoe/gloves (that gives dex n str). Combining these few items along with a base dex of 20-30 dex, the goal is definitely achievable.

Considering Stonetooth is superior and often coined as the end game 2H sword, I'd suggest not to buff/change it. If we were to calculate the dex warriors would attain from ZHELM (+15), Overall (+20), clean 10 stat Glove (lvl 90, +4), clean 8 stat Shoe (+5) and scrolls for (head/ top/ btm, str/luk/dex) if we ever get them, base dex of 20. Even with 1x scrolled overall and clean: zhelm, glove, shoe and not considering: HTP 23 dex, 10 dex Capes since most warriors will want to use a str cape and scrolls for head/ top/ btm, the total dex far exceeds 60-70 dex and almost 110 considering the items not included. Some of the items here for max stats gear comes from pianus n skel, so it actually makes the content not dead and allows players to experience/explore and have a need to participate in these aforementioned contents.

Dragon Claymore should not be buffed from speed 6 to 5, as it should not be superior than a stonetooth. Again, there's a reason why items such as Stonetooth and Dragon Claymore can co-exist in most/all servers and one weapon should not perma replace the other for the warriors scene. Stonetooth is gated behind crow, toad and gacha (both not available here) and that's fine, so stonetooth should be kept exclusive and wanted as an end-game weapon, which helps himes grinders actually grind peacefully with the help of drawing players to kill crow.

No changes should be made to lvl 100 weapons and above.

Let's actually keep warriors unique...

Edited April 15, 2021 by opman

[Kradia]

6 hours ago, CattleRage said:

As the lone semi-active Axe Sader, I'm a bit triggered.

I feel you but it's one step at a time. Can't really cover every single item at once. 😕 Right now, the best weapons are two-handed swords and if we adjust these, it'll hopefully motivate the Crusaders and the few White Knights to continue playing.

1 hour ago, opman said:

I think most people assume the higher the weapon, the more powerful it should be than the previous tier weapon, however this is not usually the case for warriors

I am saying this should be the case. The items should be more streamlined so all items matter. Additionally, this is not only warriors, but there is poor item design for all classes.

21 hours ago, Kradia said:

Every 10 levels, items should always be an upgrade. Lower level items being better does not make sense. Because two level 90 and 100 swords exist, there should be a difference depending on how they are obtainable.

The following is just stupid and this mentality has only become acceptable, because people have spent too much time over the years, playing servers like Royals/Legends with Gachapon items in massively inflated markets:

1 hour ago, opman said:

Warriors have 2 categories of types of sword's they'd carry around, 1 for grinding, 1 for bossing.

-

1 hour ago, opman said:

we should not totally remove 120dex, but just lower the requirements down to 60-70dex

Why specifically 60-70 dex? I can already tell why you're thinking of some specific, magical number based on this:

1 hour ago, opman said:

If we were to calculate the dex warriors would attain from ZHELM (+15), Overall (+20), clean 10 stat Glove (lvl 90, +4), clean 8 stat Shoe (+5) and scrolls for (head/ top/ btm, str/luk/dex) if we ever get them, base dex of 20.

You assume a specific amount of base dex because that's what everyone has adapted to. "If I'm not 20 base dex, I'm not a strong warrior. If I'm not a dexless hermit with a Scarab I am not strong." In reality the amount of base dex should always be in flux depending on your gear, level and the content available. 

Here is an example that's more in your alleyway, since you play hermit. If Maple weapons didn't exist, you'd probably be dexless wearing an Adamantium Igor (Lv. 20) or Meba (Lv. 25) until level 50/60/70, depending on how well you can scroll that weapon. This is mainly because the extra weapon att. boost for the extra dex required isn't worth it. I'm not even counting the difference in att. speed. If you're smart and build like this, not only are you saving millions of mesos, but the Igor and Meba is way more accessible than finding certain higher level claws. This is poor itemization design by Nexon, because you skip level 30, 40, 50 and possibly 60 claws.

My last point being, if you look at all warrior weapons, Stonetooth is the only weapon that has a dex requirement. There is no need for that. Distinguishing weapons by level difference and how the weapons are obtained is healthier for itemization. This way we will have less obsolete items.

 

Edited April 15, 2021 by Kradia

[opman]

again, idk why u want to nitpick variables such as base dex with explanation given or whatnot but ok. also, dex isn't just on the table, speed is too. Weapon speeds and Attacks have to have a balance when considering changes, as faster speed would mean more casts per min or per hour basis. I forgot to mention when u stated vanilla claymore being worse than Stonetooth, on what basis? Bossing wise? Yes it is worst but Grinding wise, it has higher att and is in fact superior to stonetooth in grinding 1hit KO maps like goby, especially crusaders using coma/panic. sure base dex 20, but with no dex req, the next thing we hear is "if you're not 10 dex, you're not op", the list goes on, what's new in maple?

sure u can say nexon had flaws on the items, but it's a "he say she say" if they did it in the manner of intentionality or not, but this brings uniqueness to some classes and nostalgial norms. 

3 hours ago, opman said:

Some of the items here for max stats gear comes from pianus n skel, so it actually makes the content not dead and allows players to experience/explore and have a need to participate in these aforementioned contents.

 

Edited April 15, 2021 by opman