Improvements to Holy Arrow

[twerp]

As we all know, Priests have a hard time effectively training in third job aside from a few mob maps (Coolies, DTs, Himes, Black Kents.) Even in these maps training isn’t the most exciting as we’re stuck spamming between heal and SR, hoping we don’t misjudge timing and die.

It would be interesting to explore some changes to Holy Arrow, such as using it as a skill to mark monsters hit as Holy weak for a period of time. Any Holy skill used (not heal - that combo may be too OP for 2nd job) would inflict additional burst damage.

Making a change to Holy Arrow would suddenly open up the opportunity for new skill builds and open up a new play style. It would also provide some variety to areas of training, make bossing more exciting, and hopefully improve Priest output damage just a bit so that it scales more efficiently into late game. The hope is that these improvements would make Priest game play more enjoyable and promote Priest mains, shifting the focus from HS mules. 

Huge shout outs to Kradia and Illus because they originally chatted this idea. Open to discuss thoughts! 

Edited July 20, 2021 by twerp

[opman]

apart from this, increase magic base % of skill, any thoughts?

cuz this marking on mob for additional dmg feels like 5th job classes.

[twerp]

2 hours ago, opman said:

apart from this, increase magic base % of skill, any thoughts?

cuz this marking on mob for additional dmg feels like 5th job classes.

Increasing the magic base % of the skill alone would be helpful as it could replace Cleric & Priests main long range cast spell in the current meta. Most of us still use Magic Claw because at max level, Holy Arrow and Magic Claw have the same base damage (not factoring in elemental weaknesses.) 

So this def would be a step in the right direction, but keep in mind that it would likely still have to maintain a base attack of less than 110 which is what Shining Ray sits at. This is why I like the idea of marking (I had no idea this is a 5th job thing on GMS) - it provides some more utility for Holy Arrow within the Priest's 3rd job toolkit.

[Arnah]

On 7/20/2021 at 1:41 PM, opman said:

cuz this marking on mob for additional dmg feels like 5th job classes.

I'd say more like 4th job since the Element mage Summons modify the element damage modifiers.

 

This idea is cool and giving more options outside of just undead training would be nice. Interested in others approval or thoughts of this.

Would likely ignore undead and holy strong mobs.

[dugtrio]

this idea is cool on paper, but in reality since holy arrow hits only one mob, this will most likely be used against single target because it would be better to just spam SR against a group of mobs disregarding if theyre holy weak or not.

making this holy arrow hit multiple mobs sounds really broken, unless holy arrow does really low dmg

so i dont see much use out of it except bosses/single target scenarios , but thats what priests lack anyways so its something nice to add for them.
one thing that worries me about this is 2nd job, it sounds really strong for a 2nd job skill. is it possible to add this only when u reach 3rd job or max one of the 3rd job skills?

29 minutes ago, Arnah said:

Would likely ignore undead and holy strong mobs.

what if you would doom and then holy arrow to make them holy weak, would they keep that holy weakness when they go out of doom?

[opman]

1 hour ago, Arnah said:

This idea is cool and giving more options outside of just undead training would be nice. Interested in others approval or thoughts of this.

 

sure it opens up other maps for training (leaning more towards newt) and i'm curious to see how many other diff maps priests try out and actually use the combo throughout hours of grind. My guess it'd be a good add for priest with the willingness to apply this combo with high death rate maps as priests don't usually survive 2 hits (post hb) especially in leafre's newties, to attain higher eph.

As well as the community thoughts if we'd allow it to affect boss mobs and how it affects healing/summon/sr dmg dealt on boss and may change some meta.

 

some workarounds (1 or more changes) :
- limit the mob hit count to 2-3 per cast (SR hits 6)
- limit dmg of holy arrow to 1 (since it's used as a combo skill to apply holy weak status to mob)
- limit dmg of holy arrow by skill dmg/x (x being the number of mob hit count)

[NixMar]

(edit)

i would suggest to make holy skills have an effect instead. like ice and poison have a effect.

since holy is used more by support classes i would like to have it lower a mobs stats like defence/avoid/acc.

this way not only the priest benefist but also its party members could and the priest becomes more then just a HS mule.

Edited July 25, 2021 by NixMar
remember an old idea

[twerp]

Very happy to see that there's interest in this - I was afraid this thread would go no where!

On 7/25/2021 at 4:13 AM, Arnah said:

I'd say more like 4th job since the Element mage Summons modify the element damage modifiers.

 

This idea is cool and giving more options outside of just undead training would be nice. Interested in others approval or thoughts of this.

Would likely ignore undead and holy strong mobs.

From my understand Priest damage output is low and doesn't scale as well as other classes. With that in mind I wonder if it would be worth it to having even just a +10% bonus when using "marking for holy damage" on monsters that are already holy weak? It's not a huge increase to those mobs that already are holy weak, but it would be a nice little boost.

On 7/25/2021 at 4:52 AM, dugtrio said:

this idea is cool on paper, but in reality since holy arrow hits only one mob, this will most likely be used against single target because it would be better to just spam SR against a group of mobs disregarding if theyre holy weak or not.

making this holy arrow hit multiple mobs sounds really broken, unless holy arrow does really low dmg

so i dont see much use out of it except bosses/single target scenarios , but thats what priests lack anyways so its something nice to add for them.
one thing that worries me about this is 2nd job, it sounds really strong for a 2nd job skill. is it possible to add this only when u reach 3rd job or max one of the 3rd job skills?

What if Holy Arrow marked multiple monsters in a mob? To keep it from being too OP, it could only damage the first monster but continue to pierce the remaining monsters in the mob as holy weak for no damage? Or it could be like Iron Arrow, where it damages the entire mob but damage decreases as it continues to pierce monsters? Def agree though that if the damage was maintained as is but it became a mobbing skill, that it would be too OP.

I don't think changes the skill to mark holy weak would be OP for 2nd job as long as we only allow certain skills to active the burst damage. IMO heal and casting Holy Arrow a second time should be excluded from the formula, so definitely think having this be enabled through 3rd job skills would be best. Alternatively maybe we could look at Holy Arrow also activating the burst damage but at a lower multiplier (like x1.25 instead of x1.50.) 

On 7/25/2021 at 7:20 AM, NixMar said:

(edit)

i would suggest to make holy skills have an effect instead. like ice and poison have a effect.

since holy is used more by support classes i would like to have it lower a mobs stats like defence/avoid/acc.

this way not only the priest benefist but also its party members could and the priest becomes more then just a HS mule.

I think the problem with this idea is that it's not really just a buff to Priests, it fundamentally buffs all the classes in the game.

[opman]

6 hours ago, twerp said:

What if Holy Arrow marked multiple monsters in a mob? To keep it from being too OP, it could only damage the first monster but continue to pierce the remaining monsters in the mob as holy weak for no damage? Or it could be like Iron Arrow, where it damages the entire mob but damage decreases as it continues to pierce monsters? Def agree though that if the damage was maintained as is but it became a mobbing skill, that it would be too OP.

 

pretty sure i mentioned this above but ok.

 

anyway even if holy arrow were to have issue such as the dmg being too high for a skill to mark monsters, applying a fixed 1 dmg may work, as its sole purpose would be to mark mobs with undead status for x period of time (stackable cast to increase status duration, up for debate).

Edited July 27, 2021 by opman

[NixMar]

8 hours ago, twerp said:

I think the problem with this idea is that it's not really just a buff to Priests, it fundamentally buffs all the classes in the game.

i just think changing holy arrow is not going to do enough to make priest a solo class or make it better then healing monsters. unless you buff it like crazy

[twerp]

7 hours ago, opman said:

pretty sure i mentioned this above but ok.

 

anyway even if holy arrow were to have issue such as the dmg being too high for a skill to mark monsters, applying a fixed 1 dmg may work, as its sole purpose would be to mark mobs with undead status for x period of time (stackable cast to increase status duration, up for debate).

You did! I actually didn't quote it because I agreed with most of it, but should have to shown support. I think it makes sense. 

5 hours ago, NixMar said:

i just think changing holy arrow is not going to do enough to make priest a solo class or make it better then healing monsters. unless you buff it like crazy

I don't think the purpose of these changes is to make Priests a solo class or eliminate healing as a way of training. If we can get to a point were adding Holy Arrow buffs allow Priests to be even more effective during bossing (through dealing a bit more damage) and it opens up more training grounds, I'd be happy.

[sheepy]

As long as it doesn't make priest more effective at dealing damage than other mages I think I'd be in support of just about any change that opens up more training spots for priests. The fact that it's so limited is the exact reason I'm not playing that character anymore.

[twerp]

36 minutes ago, sheepy said:

As long as it doesn't make priest more effective at dealing damage than other mages I think I'd be in support of just about any change that opens up more training spots for priests. The fact that it's so limited is the exact reason I'm not playing that character anymore.

It wouldn't! So for reference, my Shining Ray is maxed and and deals about 5K max on monsters that are holy weak. If Holy Arrow is buffed in the above ways we're mentioning, this means that Priests would be able to deal around that same range of damage to other mobs once they're marked holy weak. Even if there's a slightly bonus damage (of +10% bonus damage to monsters that already holy weak but then marked) that would still put us at doing less damage than I/L and F/P mages. 

Here's hoping that this would solve the issue with Priests feeling the lonely grind at mobs that are generally ignored by others! 😀

[Kradia]

My concept of this is to allow Holy Arrow to pierce through multiple targets for a max of 6 targets. For every mob the arrow goes through, it travels an additional (maybe?) 100px. This means, to hit 6 targets the mobs would have to be somewhat close to each other to be used efficiently, which sort of increases the skill ceiling. I think it would be really interesting if the distance between mobs determine the range on Holy Arrow and not a fixed max range.

Mobs hit by Holy Arrow are marked as holy weak for up to a certain amount of seconds. Maybe 20 seconds? Maybe less. Ideally, the marked mobs would have a visual indication that they are holy weak for the time being - this requires additional and custom animations, but it could be done and it might be cool if done properly. Maybe they have light surrounding them for the time they are holy weak like so:


Regarding the balancing part of it, I don't even consider this an issue. The skill would be entirely different and therefore, the numbers could be tweaked to be fair through Tespia or by trial and error until it's just right. The damage and animation speed is irrelevant to discuss, because it would need proper testing. It would be interesting if Holy Arrow was a contender for a first skill to max during second job, but maybe that's just me.

In my opinion, having this skill work on bosses would be completely fine. Priests would have to decide whether healing or trying to dps is best for the party they are with. This would also allow them to participate more during some bosses, which I think adds to the enjoyment of playing the class.. Bosses like Black Crow and Anego come to mind.

Alternatively, Holy Arrow is a DPS/utility skill depending on how many targets hit. Hitting a single mob 3 consecutive times with Holy Arrow, increases incoming Holy damage to that single target drastically by X% amount (higher than hitting 6 targets with Holy Arrow and then damaging them with Shining Ray/Holy Arrow). Obviously, because they are a support class, they should definitely be on the lower part of the DPS chart.

Edited July 27, 2021 by Kradia

[NixMar]

49 minutes ago, twerp said:

hat would still put us at doing less damage than I/L and F/P mages. 
 

I/L ice strike base dmg is 90 compaired to priest SR 105. in that case its probibly an atk speed issue since priest dont have spell booster.

11 minutes ago, Kradia said:

My concept of this is to allow Holy Arrow to pierce through multiple targets for a max of 6 targets.

So the crossbowman skill Iron Arrow.

in general i like the idea but it seems a bit crazy to pull off. simply buffing the dmg of the skill seems way easier and has the same effect without the every few second u have to holy arrow instead of just holding SR.

 

if Holy arrow becomes like Iron Arrow (piercing thru enemy's)  hitting 6 monster it should be enough to make cleric go to other places.

if its an dmg issue, which it looks like, buff the attack speed of SR so heal>SR>Heal>SR becomes easier/ more constant to pull off. you can still use SR against normal monsters and bosses.

[opman]

On 7/25/2021 at 5:35 PM, opman said:

some workarounds (1 or more changes) :
- limit the mob hit count to 2-3 per cast (SR hits 6)
- limit dmg of holy arrow to 1 (since it's used as a combo skill to apply holy weak status to mob)
- limit dmg of holy arrow by skill dmg/x (x being the number of mob hit count)

4 hours ago, NixMar said:

So the crossbowman skill Iron Arrow.

 

Speaking of radius of effect (AOE) after hitting 1st target, I agree with a higher spread range of hit count per holy arrow cast, we can take similar spread aoe range as the iron arrow but keep in mind we have others such as coma/ slash blast (sword = lowest) that has lower spread range that may be considered in the future.

But I doubt the skill can be similar to iron arrow at all, as the original holy arrow has already some versatility to it already, since it can bend at certain angles to target the enemy, this places the future potential of the new holy arrow skill more towards Arrow Bomb instead in terms of the initial cast.

Edited July 27, 2021 by opman

[twerp]

8 hours ago, Kradia said:

My concept of this is to allow Holy Arrow to pierce through multiple targets for a max of 6 targets. For every mob the arrow goes through, it travels an additional (maybe?) 100px. This means, to hit 6 targets the mobs would have to be somewhat close to each other to be used efficiently, which sort of increases the skill ceiling. I think it would be really interesting if the distance between mobs determine the range on Holy Arrow and not a fixed max range.

Alternatively, Holy Arrow is a DPS/utility skill depending on how many targets hit. Hitting a single mob 3 consecutive times with Holy Arrow, increases incoming Holy damage to that single target drastically by X% amount (higher than hitting 6 targets with Holy Arrow and then damaging them with Shining Ray/Holy Arrow). Obviously, because they are a support class, they should definitely be on the lower part of the DPS chart.

I'd be happy with either of these options TBH. Both would be refreshing. The alternative option you mention (Holy Arrow as a DPS/utility skill) would keep Priests a more of distance from mobs vs where we're currently at tanking mobs. It may actually open up more strategic game play, as you mention. 

8 hours ago, NixMar said:

I/L ice strike base dmg is 90 compaired to priest SR 105. in that case its probibly an atk speed issue since priest dont have spell booster.

 

if its an dmg issue, which it looks like, buff the attack speed of SR so heal>SR>Heal>SR becomes easier/ more constant to pull off. you can still use SR against normal monsters and bosses.

Keep in mind that Ice Strike may have a 90 base dmg, but it freezes and I/L mages still have several other attacks in their toolkit that deal upwards of 170 base damage + have elemental amplification which increases magic attack by +150% at max level. At max level if I use SR against a monster that isn't holy weak, I struggle to do 3K damage.

Wanting to buff Holy Arrow is two fold; part damage part the lack of a helpful toolkit in our unique 3rd job server. Outside of Holy Symbol, Shining Ray and Summon Dragon, none of our other skills NEED to be maxed. The lack of useful skills in 3rd job is what currently has is stuck just spamming between Heal>SR>Repeat which isn't the most stimulating. 

Sorry I'm really preaching my case here. 😅

4 hours ago, opman said:

But I doubt the skill can be similar to iron arrow at all, as the original holy arrow has already some versatility to it already, since it can bend at certain angles to target the enemy, this places the future potential of the new holy arrow skill more towards Arrow Bomb instead in terms of the initial cast.

We'll just have to let Arnah get creative... 😉

TBH I completely forgot that Holy Arrow could bend. I'm sure most Priests don't know that either - that's how little we use it. So if it needed to only be a straight shooting skill vs bending, I'd be fine with that.

[NixMar]

13 hours ago, opman said:

Speaking of radius of effect (AOE) after hitting 1st target, I agree with a higher spread range of hit count per holy arrow cast, we can take similar spread aoe range as the iron arrow but keep in mind we have others such as coma/ slash blast (sword = lowest) that has lower spread range that may be considered in the future.

But I doubt the skill can be similar to iron arrow at all, as the original holy arrow has already some versatility to it already, since it can bend at certain angles to target the enemy, this places the future potential of the new holy arrow skill more towards Arrow Bomb instead in terms of the initial cast.

that auto aim (bend) would be replaced to be a straight shot only.

 

9 hours ago, twerp said:

Keep in mind that Ice Strike may have a 90 base dmg, but it freezes and I/L mages still have several other attacks in their toolkit that deal upwards of 170 base damage + have elemental amplification which increases magic attack by +150% at max level. At max level if I use SR against a monster that isn't holy weak, I struggle to do 3K damage.

 

i did forget about the amplification skill IL have. but that it freeze's mobs doenst really matter since priest have heal and also dont spend much on HP that way.

i do think other elemental class struggle as well VS non weak monsters. so giving priest the ability to make every monster weak to there element is kinda unfair.

i do think give Holy Attacks in general a buff (like ice = freeze etc). maybe make holy attacks ignore monster defence stats (armor penetration) if the buff is only for holy users. or keep more the support class in mind and do something in the way i said a few post back where it lowers monster stats to promote active priest more.

i do agree that some buffs for priest are nice but dont forget about other classes. the elemental weakness is something other classes struggle with aswell

Spamming heal>SR is more active then most other classes who only spam 1 skill mostly that is just this version of maplestory

[opman]

2 hours ago, NixMar said:

i do think other elemental class struggle as well VS non weak monsters. so giving priest the ability to make every monster weak to there element is kinda unfair.

 

interesting point u brought up, however most ice mages and fp already do exceptionally well dps wise while grinding in early to late levels (esp fp misting and ice @ birks in early lvl 80s). Note that we would 1st have to cast the holy arrow and then cast SR or heal, this reduce the grinding capability already by having to perform this combo to being with. So i do think in fact, cause of this combo, its fair.

Also, i don't think reducing monster's def via holy arrow is a way to go, since it'll be fairly similar to the Threaten skill (page).
" 50% chance to reduce enemy ATT and DEF by 20% for 80 seconds and enemy Accuracy by 20% for 8 seconds."

[NixMar]

1 hour ago, opman said:

interesting point u brought up, however most ice mages and fp already do exceptionally well dps wise while grinding in early to late levels (esp fp misting and ice @ birks in early lvl 80s).

i didnt metion FP because i know mist is strong. birks are ice weak. if anything cleric/priest have it easier then fp or I/L they just need to pt with a dps class and leech of them with heal (at black kents / himes / deep ludi even)

if it is posible to make holy arrow so it marks monster holy weak for X second. then make it so frozen monster are lighting weak for IL so they spam ice strike / tunderbolt or the other way around or both ways? 

and make fire monster weak to poison or the other way around or both ways?

so elemental classes dont need to go to elemental weak monster and just make them elemental weak them self which i think defeats the purpose of elemental weak/strong monster and attacks. it does make mages more of a combo type class which is cool and opens up (OP hopefully) pt's with archer/wk.

1 hour ago, opman said:

 Note that we would 1st have to cast the holy arrow and then cast SR or heal, this reduce the grinding capability already by having to perform this combo to being with. So i do think in fact, cause of this combo, its fair.

if you mark them for 20 seconds you prob only need to cast it once and it wouldnt make alot of difference atleast on how you combo them

(edit)

just buff holy arrow to be like Iron arrow so it attacks 6 mobs (or more then 1) so it becomes usefull in 2nd job and cleric can go other places then undead monsters. It would be totally fine. it would buff the dmg to by x times the mob count. e.g. if it hit for 1k now it would do 6k if it hit 6 mobs.

 

Edited July 28, 2021 by NixMar

[twerp]

9 hours ago, NixMar said:

i didnt metion FP because i know mist is strong. birks are ice weak. if anything cleric/priest have it easier then fp or I/L they just need to pt with a dps class and leech of them with heal (at black kents / himes / deep ludi even)

(edit)

just buff holy arrow to be like Iron arrow so it attacks 6 mobs (or more then 1) so it becomes usefull in 2nd job and cleric can go other places then undead monsters. It would be totally fine. it would buff the dmg to by x times the mob count. e.g. if it hit for 1k now it would do 6k if it hit 6 mobs.

 

I'd agree that 2nd job Clerics may have it easier than the rest, but that stops at 3rd job. Just the fact that Priests need to party (not easy to find) with a DPS class immediately puts us at a disadvantage, because we can't train as effectively solo like other classes can.

I think we can agree to disagree though because at the end of the day you're also in favour of an improvement to Priests. 🙂 Truth be told it would be interesting to have both methods 1) marking for holy weak and 2) simply buffing Holy Arrow damage tested out in Tespia to understand fully how it impacts gameplay.

[RickSenchez]

i really like this idea, priests need more diversion in training maps\style

i can see how making it chain hit like iron arrow can be good for mobbing.

if mobs that are hit will have holy weekness that can make priest viable in any map for solo training. or spliting in a party and actually kill fast to contribute.
 

 

[twerp]

On 7/29/2021 at 4:55 AM, RickSenchez said:

i really like this idea, priests need more diversion in training maps\style

i can see how making it chain hit like iron arrow can be good for mobbing.

if mobs that are hit will have holy weekness that can make priest viable in any map for solo training. or spliting in a party and actually kill fast to contribute.
 

 

The Pope has spoken! 

[RickSenchez]

also, we need to consider skill build that might change if this happens.

if we decide to purely buff dmg, damage would be prioritize for some priest and they might not put points into bless.. or they give up MP eater but then pots would be an issue while grinding.. (that's actually ok)

if maxing holy arrow will also make mobs also lose some avodiability (and maybe accuracy?) that could replace bless in skill build, then priest that duo with warriors can be even more affective but only for the mobs they choose, and skillfulll priest can affect the overall worth of the party.
 
this might make priests choose playstyle between full support \ semi support \ full solo dps minded.
this can be good, also can suck for warriors.

thoughts? 
 

[twerp]

On 8/12/2021 at 12:28 PM, RickSenchez said:

also, we need to consider skill build that might change if this happens.

if we decide to purely buff dmg, damage would be prioritize for some priest and they might not put points into bless.. or they give up MP eater but then pots would be an issue while grinding.. (that's actually ok)

if maxing holy arrow will also make mobs also lose some avodiability (and maybe accuracy?) that could replace bless in skill build, then priest that duo with warriors can be even more affective but only for the mobs they choose, and skillfulll priest can affect the overall worth of the party.
 
this might make priests choose playstyle between full support \ semi support \ full solo dps minded.
this can be good, also can suck for warriors.

thoughts? 
 

I feel like this change impacting skill builds is a great thing - as you mentioned it makes it so that priests need to decide what type of play style they would like or prefer. It does mean warriors may lose out on some accuracy depending on the build, but ultimately it makes the Priest deal a bit more damage. Worth the trade off IMO! But again that is not to say that all Priests would chose that full solo or semi support build.

At this point I think it should start being tested in Tespia. 😉