Things to take into consideration when adding shield scrolls

[Kradia]

Shield scrolls are a tricky subject, because they make or break a specific class or build within a class.

I think the majority of the player base will agree that shield for weapon attack is too op and simply overpowers 2-handed weapons for warriors. Not only warriors, but they make Chief Bandits incredibly strong - and probably slightly too strong.

But what scrolls should be added then?

I suggest that only Shield for STR, Shield for DEX and Shield for LUK be added to Phoenix - avoiding Shield for INT for a very particular reason, which will be explained last.

1) Shield for STR is fair and a good compromise on the fact that shield for weapon attack doesn't exist. It gives warriors that extra boost they are missing for playing with one-handed weapons. But they also encourage bandits to build around STR for the cool STR-daggers.

2) As for shield for DEX, that would be a great alternative for Warriors as well. This way, they could choose to use a DEX shield to gain a bit more accuracy to hit mobs. More importantly, shield for DEX will fit Chief Bandits greatly as they will finally be able to scroll their wristguards.

3) Finally, shield for LUK should also exist as an alternative for Chief Bandits who chose to build LUK gear instead of DEX, similarly like thieves have the option to choose between a DEX or LUK cape. But more importantly, shield for LUK would encourage mages to build for low LUK builds. This way, we can hopefully encourage mages to go low LUK to use those higher level wands and staves instead of seeing every mage and their mother lukless. 

Why not shield for Magic Attack (or INT)?

Shield for INT further encourages mages to assign all points into INT. They can use a level 8 wand and still be stronger than a mage wearing a level 80+ wand/staff. This is bad. 1 INT equals 1 magic attack, no matter wat what level. Lukless mages always have more magic attack than regular ones. Furthermore, 10 int equals +1 MP gain per level, which really adds up. If you compare a LUK mage to a lukless mage, even though the LUK mage has weapon/magic defenses, the lukless mage is more tanky, simply because he has more mana and because of how magic guard works.

Conclusion

By following this design you will encourage more variety in stat building for warriors, bandits and mages who can all wear shields. Shields as of now are basically useless as they only offer a few defensive stats, which pretty much mean nothing. Furthermore, specific equipment might gain value and no longer be "just another item to NPC". Things like one-handed weapons, specifically Red Katana. But also mage staves/wands might be a little more valuable. I highly recommend following this "design logic" to encourage mages into going LUK gear in the future, with the other scrolls that will hopefully some day be added to the game as well. Why? Because this would mean that mage items would eventually matter, as they currently don't matter at all, except in very specific instances. Lastly, it's worth mentioning that no, none of this is "too op". Shield for STR will open up more varied build paths, but total weapon attack simply outscales stats in the later stages of the game (read: level 120+), meaning 2-handed weapons will always prevail eventually. As for the other two, DEX and LUK will only add more items to work on, which is definitely what the current state of Phoenix lacks.

 

 

 

Edited November 10, 2020 by Kradia

[dugtrio]

+1

[Trashman]

I think this sounds like a great idea. I usually enjoy making outside the mold classes, like one handed BW white knight and strength mage for example. Small implements like these could go a long way in keeping the incentive to keep grinding in a 1x1x1 server.

Question for op, would you have all these scrolls be 60s and 10s? Or are they 60/10 exclusive?

As a high luck mage main, it would be cool to scroll items and pass them down to other images that could equip them, so I'm all for making more low luck images in server.

The scroll for shield for dex I think is the weakest arguement to add to the game, but I would still welcome it if it meant the rest could come too.

[Kradia]

10 hours ago, Trashman said:

Question for op, would you have all these scrolls be 60s and 10s? Or are they 60/10 exclusive?

They should be in forms of 10s and 60s only. I don't think 100s should exist for this type of scroll. Arnah did mention somewhere, that adding additional scrolls would be dealt with this way, by converting them to 10s and 60s.

10 hours ago, Trashman said:

The scroll for shield for dex I think is the weakest arguement to add to the game, but I would still welcome it if it meant the rest could come too.

I forgot to mention in the opening post that shield for DEX would indeed be a custom scroll. While it didn't ever exist, I think it would be a cool addition to the game because of what it offers to the game. The scroll would let warriors choose either STR of DEX on their shield depending on what they need at that current time, while bandits could alternate between STR, DEX and LUK.

The more options you have with your equipment, the more you can think out of the box with this game. I feel that it's only a good thing to encourage alternating, but equally powerful itemization.

For everybody reading, Arnah has mentioned to take such subjects to the forums for open discussions and he wants more people's opinions. So by any means, feel free to disagree if you do and share your own suggestion(s).

Edited November 11, 2020 by Kradia

[Fruit Shop Owner]

To clarify for people who are less familiar with formulas and whatnot; you can make your own conclusions:

Warriors: Although the listed weapon attack of a one-handed and a two-handed weapon of the same level, for example, may be the same, two-handed weapons receive a higher coefficient from strength. In the case of swords, that should be 4.0 for one handed compared to 4.6 for two-handed. These coefficients are used with other factors in the complete formula, but what matters is that two-handed weapons should hit harder. This, by extension, also means that they overpower more of a monster's weapon defense than one-handed weapons (unlike player defense, monster defense can make a more substantial difference, although at some level of power it might be insignificant). There's also weapon speed versus reach, which might not be much of a dilemma for most people, but it's still something to consider

To recap, two-handed weapons hit harder, penetrate more monster defense, and may have greater reach; one-handed weapons are faster. In my opinion, weapon attack for shield would be acceptable for warriors, as it would give one-handed weapons a sufficient boost to match two-handed weapons - if they even need it, which is arguable

 

For bandits, I don't have any significant opinions - if it feels like they already beat the other classes in damage/dps, avoiding a further buff might be desirable, but it might be worth considering what bandits lack that other classes have. The answer is nothing 

Mages - although it wouldn't encourage people to invest in LUK, I don't much see a problem with Shield INT. If you're pure int, you get more int/matt; if you've got luk...you get more int/matt. This may be a good opportunity to promote luk investments, but doing it by aborting other scrolls feels kinda artificial and forced

 

I play almost exclusively with unusual builds, but part of their charm for me is making them work in a world where they aren't expected to work. Twisting the game to make them work kinda takes away from that

Edited November 11, 2020 by Fruit Shop Owner

[manfroy]

1 Handed warriors could really use a buff, and while shield att is good for them, that would just make dits even stronger. shield STR is prob the only scroll that i think arnah would not have too much of a problem adding at all(if he even considers this)
shield dex im not too sure about, it would have to also give accuracy so warriors would even bother using it(same amount glove dex gives), and it just straight up gives dits an easier time equipping higher level weapons
shield luk, well, idk if any mages would go luk because lama staff exists even if they had the option to get luk gear. dits win again with this as well cause primary stat.

tldr any of the 3 shield scrolls proposed would benefit dits the most in some way KEKW
+1

shield for magic att was already op, but shield int would still be really good. i dont see mages ever using shield luk (aside from f/p) so to have a shield scrolling option besides hp they should have it

Edited November 16, 2020 by manfroy

[pupupipi]

i think buffing shield str 10% would be a pretty solid move tbh: it helps 1H warriors be a more viable option, and also (assuming we never get khanjar or kebab/fan) helps str bandits close the gap with luk bandits.

currently it only adds +3str compared to +2str for a 60% which makes using it kind of pointless, but if you buff it to +5str for a 10% scroll, you can realistically scroll a 15-20str shield for your warrior or bandit. My memory is kinda shit but I think a 20str shield (1 10%, 6 60%s on a 3str base - not easy but not impossible) is roughly equivalent to +3~6atk for a warrior depending on level which is a nice boost but nothing game breaking where suddenly everyone is only using red katana or spartas like in Legends/Royals.

For str bandits, if you're trying to equip a cursayer you're currently foregoing anywhere between like 30 and 50 points in luk depending on your gear. if you can bring that down to like 15 ~ 25 luk with a well scrolled str jurgen, now the (potential) +2atk that the cursayer has over the varkit can maybe begin to make up for the AP you invested at higher levels where w.atk becomes more valuable.

[dugtrio]

i think you guys are a little over estimating on how much shield luk actually helps dits,
it does help dont get me wrong ,but on average of4/7 60% working on your shield , 8 stats dont change that much, 
with leafre releasing soon, i think like every class and especially melee could use some help, since the damage that the high lvl leafre mobs are more than anything in the game (not including  bosses ofc) yet the players damage stays roughly the same without 4th job being added.

point is band of thieves sucks ass for high lvl mobs becasue of how monster defense is calculated for reducing damage,
and i dont think dits should only have one option to train with , that is with meso explosion which doesnt even get changed with more/less stats.

 

[Asuki]

I think Shield for int is fine and here is why I think so.

A normal luk mage will eventually be on par or even beat a lukless in the long run.

1 point of luk can be considered a conversion to 1 point of int and vice versa if going luk build.

The stats from equips will eventually make up for the difference in  my opinion.

With the evil wings build this is a rough estimate: +15 luk from zhelm(converts to +15 more int), +5 overall, +5 gloves, +5 shoes. Evil wings has 22 more matk than lama. 

Which is about 52 bonus stats of luk/int/matk that can be put to use for luk mages. More luk boosts the lower end of the magic damage like a mini mastery. And non-priests have elemental amplification(Unsure if it applies only to staff matk or total matk or total magic). 

As far as the more int, that should only apply in the intermediate phase of when adding additional luk. I think +6 mp per level wont make or break the balance of being more "tanky". Otherwise bowmen and theives wouldn't even have a chance. After reaching the appropriate luk levels both mages grow at the same rate.

[Kradia]

On 11/26/2020 at 10:41 AM, Asuki said:

The stats from equips will eventually make up for the difference in  my opinion.

Your opinion is incorrect mathematically speaking. 

On 11/26/2020 at 10:41 AM, Asuki said:

With the evil wings build this is a rough estimate: +15 luk from zhelm(converts to +15 more int), +5 overall, +5 gloves, +5 shoes. Evil wings has 22 more matk than lama. 

Even if you might've found a loophole build for a very specific point in the game, that doesn't necessarily mean the rest of the items are just fine. Think of all the completely useless mage equipment that just exist to be NPC'd.

My suggestion isn't going to fix all issues with mage gear and builds, but it will at least become a little more streamlined and very comparable with how other classes build. Higher level characters should be using higher level gear. Having mages scroll for LUK instead of INT encourages LUK builds, meaning they will be allowed to wear higher level staves and wands, which then results in making higher level staves and wands actually matter and have a value. If you were to add more INT scrolls, you're encouraging the opposite thing; leaving mages to use llama/nocturnal staves.

Fixing the issue entirely (meaning every item serving a purpose for its level) is too late as a meta has already been established for lower level gear.