Give a Critical Chance Buff to Archers

[days]

It's well known that hermit's completely outshine archers in terms of damage, and utility. I think a good way to reduce the gap between hermits and archers damage would be to increase the crit percentage for archers. As it stands right now, archers have a 40% crit chance, while hermits have a 50% crit chance. Making archers crit 50%, or even 60%, would allow for more consistent damage for archers. 

 

This change could be implemented in either the original crit skill in archer's 1st job. Or as a separate passive in archer's 2nd or 3rd job. However I think the best way to handle it would simply be changing the values of the original crit skill. 

 

4th job made major strides to reduce the disparity between hermits and archers damage, so without these changes archers are objectively worse then hermits in nearly every aspect. Making this change to archers crit chance will allow them to be more viable option for parties, and bossing. 

 

EDIT:

After more consideration, and discussion the real issue isn't archers damage, it is the rangers DPS against both hermits and snipers. A smart way to buff ranger DPS without changing any skills would be to increase the attack speed of the Metus, Nisrock, and Dragon Shiner and possibly even the Arund and the Hinkel, to be equivalent to the Blue Metus. This would allow rangers to shoot strafe faster, and be on-par with at least the DPS of snipers. 

EDIT 2:

With the addition of the Crimson Arclancer in the game, I no longer see a need to increase the attack speed of other bows. Boosting archers crit rate to 50% would be the best option if an archer buff were to happen in my opinion. 

Edited May 27, 2022 by days

[Conorrhea]

+1

[Ghost]

Comparing strictly archers and hermits, archers get crit very early on and arrow rain 3rd job, which is far superior to avenger in terms of mobbing.  Archers also get soul arrow 2nd job, and hermits don't get shadow stars at all.  Archers are far cheaper to fund.  I think the tradeoffs balance out.  Archers are superior for mobbing/training, and hermits have better single target DPS. 

That being said, if some form of 4th job is implemented (as arnah has hinted at in a previous thread), I would be all for some form of SE as a 4th job skill for archer.  As a passive skill or party buff, I think it would be a good idea to help late game archers.  Please let me know what you think.

Edited February 22, 2021 by Ghost

[days]

6 minutes ago, Ghost said:

Comparing strictly archers and hermits, archers get crit very early on and arrow rain 3rd job, which is far superior to avenger in terms of mobbing.  Archers also get soul arrow 2nd job, and hermits don't get shadow stars at all.  Archers are far cheaper to fund.  I think the tradeoffs balance out.  Archers are superior for mobbing/training, and hermits have better single target DPS. 

That being said, if some form of 4th job is implemented (as arnah has hinted at in a previous thread), I would be all for some form of SE as a 4th job skill for archer.  As a passive skill or party buff, I think it would be a good idea to help late game archers.  Please let me know what you think.

Crit early doesnt really matter cuz L7 does 300% damage. While double shot does 280% on average with max crit, so even without crit sins do more single target first and second job. Regarding arrow rain and soul arrow, arrow rain is the one thing that allows rangers to stand out from hermits. Allowing us to abuse arrow rain spam on certain maps. Soul arrow has its pros, by giving us much more inventory space, but it also negates any damage bonuses we get from arrows. Avenger, even without shadow partner, does more damage than arrow rain, 180% vs 160%. The only advantage arrow rain has is that it can hit mobs below and slightly above the player. Saying "Archers are superior for mobbing/training" is just untrue, as hermits have so much more going for them that allow for training to be more efficient, and less expensive. Most notable FJ, alchemist, haste, meso-up, drain, higher single target, and higher multi target damage. The tradeoffs, in my opinion, are not even close to balancing out.  While archers are cheaper to fund, saying that only proves my point that they are much worse than hermits. If a class is cheap to play, that is usually a clear sign that the class is underplayed and bad. 

 

Pros of archer are: better crowd control of enemies (arrow bomb stun, sniper freeze, puppet, hawk stun) which are needed since archer take so long to kill single targets. Better mobbing in certain maps that allow for arrow rain abuse. Infinite arrows, and they're cheaper to fund, which as I said, just proves they are worse then hermits. 

 

Pros of hermit: Able to go invisible (dark sight), better crit chance and much higher single target damage, party skills (haste, meso up), able to make meso in nearly any map they train with the use of meso-up, alchemist, and drain, much higher mobility with FJ and haste, higher multi-target damage through avenger. Able to knock back enemies at an earlier level as L7 does 150% damage . Knocking back enemies in my opinion is a super underrated gameplay mechanic and allows for hermits to save more money on pots.

 

If you truly think the pro's of archer and hermit balance out, then go ahead and believe that, but I think the least archers could get in terms of a buff to be not as horrible compared to hermits is a crit chance buff.

[Ghost]

15 minutes ago, days said:

Crit early doesnt really matter cuz L7 does 300% damage. While double shot does 280% on average with max crit, so even without crit sins do more single target first and second job. Regarding arrow rain and soul arrow, arrow rain is the one thing that allows rangers to stand out from hermits. Allowing us to abuse arrow rain spam on certain maps. Soul arrow has its pros, by giving us much more inventory space, but it also negates any damage bonuses we get from arrows. Avenger, even without shadow partner, does more damage than arrow rain, 180% vs 160%. The only advantage arrow rain has is that it can hit mobs below and slightly above the player. Saying "Archers are superior for mobbing/training" is just untrue, as hermits have so much more going for them that allow for training to be more efficient, and less expensive. Most notable FJ, alchemist, haste, meso-up, drain, higher single target, and higher multi target damage. The tradeoffs, in my opinion, are not even close to balancing out.  While archers are cheaper to fund, saying that only proves my point that they are much worse than hermits. If a class is cheap to play, that is usually a clear sign that the class is underplayed and bad. 

 

Pros of archer are: better crowd control of enemies (arrow bomb stun, sniper freeze, puppet, hawk stun) which are needed since archer take so long to kill single targets. Better mobbing in certain maps that allow for arrow rain abuse. Infinite arrows, and they're cheaper to fund, which as I said, just proves they are worse then hermits. 

 

Pros of hermit: Able to go invisible (dark sight), better crit chance and much higher single target damage, party skills (haste, meso up), able to make meso in nearly any map they train with the use of meso-up, alchemist, and drain, much higher mobility with FJ and haste, higher multi-target damage through avenger. Able to knock back enemies at an earlier level as L7 does 150% damage . Knocking back enemies in my opinion is a super underrated gameplay mechanic and allows for hermits to save more money on pots.

 

If you truly think the pro's of archer and hermit balance out, then go ahead and believe that, but I think the least archers could get in terms of a buff to be not as horrible compared to hermits is a crit chance buff.

Good points. I was thinking only in terms of damage (single and multi-target).  I didn't consider hermits have alchemist (obviously broken), drain (free HP pots), and FJ for mobility.  Not to mention haste for further mobility in 2nd job, and meso up which of course is important on a 1x server.  So many hermits opt to max that first because it makes such a large difference on this server. It's true archers are severely lacking in party skills, which is why I think some form of SE being added would be good.  

I would also be for just increasing archers crit skill.  It was determined in Leafre tespia that late game Rangers suffer from single-target DPS overall, and arrow rain is pretty irrelevant then since they will be at Newts.  Newts were designed for ranged classes (look at their drops being mostly thief and archer gear).

I'm also talking strictly about Rangers and not Snipers, since Snipers have other skills to help them out like freezing mobs.  This is why I'm leaning more toward a type of SE skill for 4th job Ranger excluding Snipers.  Buffing the crit skill alone will benefit both Ranger and Sniper which defeats the purpose of choosing Ranger.

Edited February 22, 2021 by Ghost

[days]

1 minute ago, Ghost said:

Good points. I was thinking only in terms of damage (single and multi-target).  I didn't consider hermits have alchemist (obviously broken), drain (free HP pots), and FJ for mobility.  Not to mention haste for further mobility in 2nd job, and meso up which of course is important on a 1x server.  So many hermits opt to max that first because it makes such a large difference on this server. It's true archers are severely lacking in party skills, which is why I think some form of SE being added would be good.  

Yeah, if we isolate simply the damage portion of each class, I think an argument could be made for archers having worse single target. But the fact that hermits have amazing utility, movement, and are the best ranged dps in the game really shines a light on how bad archers are compared to them. I think some form of SE would be a welcome change honestly, even if it was a nerfed version of the skill, it would not only balance the damage of the class to compete with hermits, but it would also make rangers desirable for training parties. 

12 minutes ago, Ghost said:

Good points. I was thinking only in terms of damage (single and multi-target).  I didn't consider hermits have alchemist (obviously broken), drain (free HP pots), and FJ for mobility.  Not to mention haste for further mobility in 2nd job, and meso up which of course is important on a 1x server.  So many hermits opt to max that first because it makes such a large difference on this server. It's true archers are severely lacking in party skills, which is why I think some form of SE being added would be good.  

I would also be for just increasing archers crit skill.  It was determined in Leafre tespia that late game Rangers suffer from single-target DPS overall, and arrow rain is pretty irrelevant then since they will be at Newts.  Newts were designed for ranged classes (look at their drops being mostly thief and archer gear).

I'm also talking strictly about Rangers and not Snipers, since Snipers have other skills to help them out like freezing mobs.  This is why I'm leaning more toward a type of SE skill for 4th job Ranger excluding Snipers.  Buffing the crit skill alone will benefit both Ranger and Sniper which defeats the purpose of choosing Ranger.

Yeah snipers will always have an edge over rangers. One way this could be completely fixed is by giving endgame bows a faster attack speed then endgame xbows. Allowing rangers to strafe faster, as it stands right now ranger and sniper shoot strafe at the same speed. 

[Juneee]

Hermits are stronger on single target dps than archers is fair. They actually do about the same AVERAGE damage in HITS.. But hermits do higher dps because of ATT SPEED/mobility more than anything.

I have full calculations to back it up which i will delve into further later.

 

But firstly, the tradeoff being hermits are infinitely more expensive to fund than archers. 

1) from claw scrolls being more expensive (x3 the price of a bow/xbow scroll)

2) to the claws itself and the scarcity of it compared to how many hermits there are in the population.

3) and the stars (20~24 sets of ilbis, at current market price of 30m/ea, it comes up to 600m just for 20 sets and 720m for 24 sets. It is safe to say that with 600m you can fund an archer to godly status and have some mesos left for your grandchildren's children.)  

4) and general equips like above average thief gloves and shoes. and now that lvl 100 overalls exist for both M/F as well.
- using something from the past which is now redundant due to 1) mu lung hat 2) maple hat 3) accessibility of Zakum these days. Just as an example, 5 and 6 stats identity (Lvl 60 thief hats). What was its value previously? 20mil or something there about for the 6 stats and a couple million for the 5 stats? Average was just 4. So its significant price they pay just for +1/2 stats more.

In comparison, archers have a much easier time to scroll. People who find their equips NPC them if the are average, and if they are +1 stat above they sell for a couple hundred K's more than NPC price at best. The fact they dont have to spend another 600m on top of what they would need to spend on a hermit's set of equips should let it speak for itself.

 

Okay next, archers are so excellent at mobbing in 2nd job and 3rd job. In comparison Hermits dont ever mob well enough. But we are delving into the special attributes of each class with this topic and its a slippery slope. The very mechanics of both classes are already intended to be different. So trying to argue 1 skill that benefits the other job has over the other is moot.
To a Hermit, a ranger/sniper's rain/eruption is so so good along with the fire/ice arrows that help with grouping up mobs. and puppet just makes hunting gatekeepers EZ mode compared to if a hermit were to hunt GKs. Not to mention the summons that help in additional dps and stun.
While to an archer, flash jump and alchemist seems op. Haste and Meso Up are a party skill, last i check archers (and everyone else) benefit from them too so its a little irrelevant to count them as an advantage hermits have over archers. I mean sure if all you do is SOLO. Which is where i can see why days brings it up in his post. But in a normal party setting at fog or gobies or vikings, archers would most certainly get those benefits too if they are available. So its really nitpicking at things to count them as advantages hermits have over archers in the grand scale of things especially so when we are trying to discuss about damage per se.

 

and finally we come to pure numbers. Because all the above is subjective, you can cherry pick on something and argue it to death if you so believe it to be true. But numbers are always objective. So here we go,

Assuming all classes uses average stats level 90 weapon and passed 5*60%, work gloves passed 5*60%, all uses warrior pots +5 wa, and Hermit uses ilbi.

Additional stats from equipments such as helmet/overall/top/bottom/shoe/cape are ignored for all classes. All classes are assumed to be level 120.

Ranger - str 95, dex 522, int 4, luk 4. Weapon attack 115. Attack range= 1211~2150 
Sniper - str 90, dex 527, int 4, luk 4. Weapon attack 118. Attack range= 1315~2344 

Hermit - str 4, dex 130, int 4, luk 487. Weapon attack 94. L7 Attack range= 1144~2288 

Ranger/Sniper

strafe = 560% average
attacking % broken down = 12.96% chance dealing 400% (minimum damage). 34.56% chance of dealing 500%. 34.56% chance of dealing 600%. 15.36% chance of dealing 700%. 2.56% chance of dealing 800%

Hermit

L7+SP= 600% average 
attacking % broken down = 25% chance dealing 450% (minimum damage), 50% chance dealing 600% (average damage), 25% chance dealing 750% (maximum damage).
 

Ranger/Sniper

AVERAGE Strafe damage from AVERAGE damage Range.
using 560% (x5.6)
Ranger Attack range= 1211~2150.....    6781~12040 = 9410 average total damage per strafe
Sniper  Attack range= 1315~2344.....    7364-13126 = 10245 average total damage per strafe

Maximum damage (assuming all shots at 100% mastery and 800% (x8.0) with full crit for archers)
Ranger (max range 2150 x 8.0) = 17200 max total damage per strafe
Sniper  (max range 2344 x 8.0) = 18752 max total damage per strafe

Minimum (assuming all shot at pathetic 60% mastery and 400% (x4.0) without crit for archers)
Ranger (min range 1211 x 4.0) = 4844 min total damage per strafe
Sniper  (min range 1315  x 4.0) = 5260 min total damage per strafe

Hermit

Average L7+SP damage from Average damage Range.
using 600% (x6.0)
Hermit L7 attack range= 1144~2288....    6864-13728 = 10296 average total damage per L7+SP

Maximum damage (750% for hermit)
Hermit (max range 2288 x 7.5) = 17160 max total damager per L7+SP (lower than even Ranger's damage but it's okay since Archers only have 2.56% of activating full crit.)

Minimum damage (450% for hermit)
Hermit (min range 1144 x 4.5) = 5148 min total damage per L7+SP with no crits.

 

As you can see and like I said earlier, the average damage between archers and hermits are similar, with the exception of Rangers being slightly weaker, but they are able to make up for it with a Blue Metus which is a (5) speed lvl 90 bow, but im not sure if its available in Phoenix. If it isn't, it SHOULD be available because that is a better and more appropriate game changer than to carelessly tinker and customize around class skills and their values.
L7+SP speed with booster = 600ms.
Strafe with booster = 720ms on (6) speed and 660ms on (5) speed.

Where hermits get the better dps is in their faster attacking speed. But let's face it, dps is only ever relevant when we're talking about a single target/boss standing still not moving around. With all things considered, a hermit or an archer would likely take the same amount of hits to kill off a mob. Because of flash jump that gives hermit their mobility, they surely excel in all things 1v1. Which i think is fair because when you look at the whole picture, they are only ever good 1v1, avenger as a mobbing skill is only ever decent when the hermit out-levels the mobs they train at.
 

But that is not to say the archer lacks in comparison because:

1) they have an easier time gearing up due to abundance/availability of gears and its much cheaper to scroll their endgame gears.
2) they have hawks that help increase their 1v1 dps that is not even taken into account above. Along with damage, it stuns as well more importantly. 
3) the calculations above takes into account average gears(weapons) for both archers and hermits. But in reality, Archers would have better scrolled weapons than the hermits (with similar funding). Furthermore, in the calculations the hermit is using ilbi, that means if they dont have funds for ilbis that damage put up there will be even lower as well. and a full set of ilbis being 600m. It will take a very very long time for a hermit to "come online" compared to an archer. Heck, even a full set of 20 steelys will set you back a cool 160m at current prices (8mil/ea). and to think they were 11~13mil/ea previously.
4) Really, the cost of being a hermit is so great that you could just as easily make an archer with good gears that can outdamage hermits where all things damage is concerned.

 

A buff to archers which allows them close the gap with hermits on 1v1 situations AND further outshine hermits when mobbing will simply be just too much of a buff (one that is not needed imho). Let Hermits continue to do what they do best which is excel 1v1 with the mobility they have, and archers to do what they do best which is being decent 1v1 AND mobbing AND mobbing control. Mind you archers also have slightly longer attack ranges than hermits do. All these little things add up in certain situations that is often easily overlooked as being "nothing significant". (e.g. archers have easier time snipe-training while standing on safe spots which means they are safe from the risk of death, while with the price of mobility for hermits, carelessly FJ-ing into mobs results in death, a risk they have because they cannot mob from safe spots, think vikings map, jr newts, etc. and puppet to help them tank/distract while they snipe from afar, think gatekeepers.) Hence that is why i try to paint the bigger picture with all things considered. and with all things considered i dont think archers need a buff with regards to damage or their crit chance.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 22, 2021 by Juneee

[days]

3 hours ago, Juneee said:

Hermits are stronger on single target dps than archers is fair. They actually do about the same AVERAGE damage in HITS.. But hermits do higher dps because of ATT SPEED/mobility more than anything.

I have full calculations to back it up which i will delve into further later.

 

But firstly, the tradeoff being hermits are infinitely more expensive to fund than archers. 

1) from claw scrolls being more expensive (x3 the price of a bow/xbow scroll)

2) to the claws itself and the scarcity of it compared to how many hermits there are in the population.

3) and the stars (20~24 sets of ilbis, at current market price of 30m/ea, it comes up to 600m just for 20 sets and 720m for 24 sets. It is safe to say that with 600m you can fund an archer to godly status and have some mesos left for your grandchildren's children.)  

4) and general equips like above average thief gloves and shoes. and now that lvl 100 overalls exist for both M/F as well.
- using something from the past which is now redundant due to 1) mu lung hat 2) maple hat 3) accessibility of Zakum these days. Just as an example, 5 and 6 stats identity (Lvl 60 thief hats). What was its value previously? 20mil or something there about for the 6 stats and a couple million for the 5 stats? Average was just 4. So its significant price they pay just for +1/2 stats more.

In comparison, archers have a much easier time to scroll. People who find their equips NPC them if the are average, and if they are +1 stat above they sell for a couple hundred K's more than NPC price at best. The fact they dont have to spend another 600m on top of what they would need to spend on a hermit's set of equips should let it speak for itself.

 

Okay next, archers are so excellent at mobbing in 2nd job and 3rd job. In comparison Hermits dont ever mob well enough. But we are delving into the special attributes of each class with this topic and its a slippery slope. The very mechanics of both classes are already intended to be different. So trying to argue 1 skill that benefits the other job has over the other is moot.
To a Hermit, a ranger/sniper's rain/eruption is so so good along with the fire/ice arrows that help with grouping up mobs. and puppet just makes hunting gatekeepers EZ mode compared to if a hermit were to hunt GKs. Not to mention the summons that help in additional dps and stun.
While to an archer, flash jump and alchemist seems op. Haste and Meso Up are a party skill, last i check archers (and everyone else) benefit from them too so its a little irrelevant to count them as an advantage hermits have over archers. I mean sure if all you do is SOLO. Which is where i can see why days brings it up in his post. But in a normal party setting at fog or gobies or vikings, archers would most certainly get those benefits too if they are available. So its really nitpicking at things to count them as advantages hermits have over archers in the grand scale of things especially so when we are trying to discuss about damage per se.

 

and finally we come to pure numbers. Because all the above is subjective, you can cherry pick on something and argue it to death if you so believe it to be true. But numbers are always objective. So here we go,

Assuming all classes uses average stats level 90 weapon and passed 5*60%, work gloves passed 5*60%, all uses warrior pots +5 wa, and Hermit uses ilbi.

Additional stats from equipments such as helmet/overall/top/bottom/shoe/cape are ignored for all classes. All classes are assumed to be level 120.

Ranger - str 95, dex 522, int 4, luk 4. Weapon attack 115. Attack range= 1211~2150 
Sniper - str 90, dex 527, int 4, luk 4. Weapon attack 118. Attack range= 1315~2344 

Hermit - str 4, dex 130, int 4, luk 487. Weapon attack 94. L7 Attack range= 1144~2288 

Ranger/Sniper

strafe = 560% average
attacking % broken down = 12.96% chance dealing 400% (minimum damage). 34.56% chance of dealing 500%. 34.56% chance of dealing 600%. 15.36% chance of dealing 700%. 2.56% chance of dealing 800%

Hermit

L7+SP= 600% average 
attacking % broken down = 25% chance dealing 450% (minimum damage), 50% chance dealing 600% (average damage), 25% chance dealing 750% (maximum damage).
 

Ranger/Sniper

AVERAGE Strafe damage from AVERAGE damage Range.
using 560% (x5.6)
Ranger Attack range= 1211~2150.....    6781~12040 = 9410 average total damage per strafe
Sniper  Attack range= 1315~2344.....    7364-13126 = 10245 average total damage per strafe

Maximum damage (assuming all shots at 100% mastery and 800% (x8.0) with full crit for archers)
Ranger (max range 2150 x 8.0) = 17200 max total damage per strafe
Sniper  (max range 2344 x 8.0) = 18752 max total damage per strafe

Minimum (assuming all shot at pathetic 60% mastery and 400% (x4.0) without crit for archers)
Ranger (min range 1211 x 4.0) = 4844 min total damage per strafe
Sniper  (min range 1315  x 4.0) = 5260 min total damage per strafe

Hermit

Average L7+SP damage from Average damage Range.
using 600% (x6.0)
Hermit L7 attack range= 1144~2288....    6864-13728 = 10296 average total damage per L7+SP

Maximum damage (750% for hermit)
Hermit (max range 2288 x 7.5) = 17160 max total damager per L7+SP (lower than even Ranger's damage but it's okay since Archers only have 2.56% of activating full crit.)

Minimum damage (450% for hermit)
Hermit (min range 1144 x 4.5) = 5148 min total damage per L7+SP with no crits.

 

As you can see and like I said earlier, the average damage between archers and hermits are similar, with the exception of Rangers being slightly weaker, but they are able to make up for it with a Blue Metus which is a (5) speed lvl 90 bow, but im not sure if its available in Phoenix. If it isn't, it SHOULD be available because that is a better and more appropriate game changer than to carelessly tinker and customize around class skills and their values.
L7+SP speed with booster = 600ms.
Strafe with booster = 720ms on (6) speed and 660ms on (5) speed.

Where hermits get the better dps is in their faster attacking speed. But let's face it, dps is only ever relevant when we're talking about a single target/boss standing still not moving around. With all things considered, a hermit or an archer would likely take the same amount of hits to kill off a mob. Because of flash jump that gives hermit their mobility, they surely excel in all things 1v1. Which i think is fair because when you look at the whole picture, they are only ever good 1v1, avenger as a mobbing skill is only ever decent when the hermit out-levels the mobs they train at.
 

But that is not to say the archer lacks in comparison because:

1) they have an easier time gearing up due to abundance/availability of gears and its much cheaper to scroll their endgame gears.
2) they have hawks that help increase their 1v1 dps that is not even taken into account above. Along with damage, it stuns as well more importantly. 
3) the calculations above takes into account average gears(weapons) for both archers and hermits. But in reality, Archers would have better scrolled weapons than the hermits (with similar funding). Furthermore, in the calculations the hermit is using ilbi, that means if they dont have funds for ilbis that damage put up there will be even lower as well. and a full set of ilbis being 600m. It will take a very very long time for a hermit to "come online" compared to an archer. Heck, even a full set of 20 steelys will set you back a cool 160m at current prices (8mil/ea). and to think they were 11~13mil/ea previously.
4) Really, the cost of being a hermit is so great that you could just as easily make an archer with good gears that can outdamage hermits where all things damage is concerned.

 

A buff to archers which allows them close the gap with hermits on 1v1 situations AND further outshine hermits when mobbing will simply be just too much of a buff (one that is not needed imho). Let Hermits continue to do what they do best which is excel 1v1 with the mobility they have, and archers to do what they do best which is being decent 1v1 AND mobbing AND mobbing control. Mind you archers also have slightly longer attack ranges than hermits do. All these little things add up in certain situations that is often easily overlooked as being "nothing significant". (e.g. archers have easier time snipe-training while standing on safe spots which means they are safe from the risk of death, while with the price of mobility for hermits, carelessly FJ-ing into mobs results in death, a risk they have because they cannot mob from safe spots, think vikings map, jr newts, etc. and puppet to help them tank/distract while they snipe from afar, think gatekeepers.) Hence that is why i try to paint the bigger picture with all things considered. and with all things considered i dont think archers need a buff with regards to damage or their crit chance.

 

 

 

 

I appreciate the points brought up here, but just want to nit pick a few things. Regarding hermits being more expensive to fund, this is once again of hermits being better than archers. If archers were to receive a damage buff, they would be a more desirable class, and thus the price of their equipment and scrolls would increase. Another reason why hermits are so expensive, is because they are able to make a lot more meso then other classes (when training solo).
 

Silver hawk as a 1v1 damage boost is nearly irrelevant, not only does it cost a summoning rock, but it takes on average 5 silver hawk hits at max level to equal the damage of 1 strafe. While in some very rare cases this may allow you to kill a mob 1 strafe sooner, it’s so unlikely that it’s barely worth mentioning. Silver hawks main strength is stunning mobs that have respawned while mobbing another group.

 

I like that you bring up the Blue Metus, because in my opinion that was Nexon’s half assed attempt at solving the issues with ranger and sniper strafe speed. Which unfortunately is such a rare drop from BMM it will likely never be seen on the server. If nexon had made all Metus’ and Nisrocks’ the same attack speed as Blue Metus, then I believe the Ranger class would be in a much better position. Honestly, a change to endgame bows attack speed would be a big enough buff to not warrant a crit chance buff in my opinion.

 

lastly, and this is the whole reason I made this post in the first place, should the class that has the best mobility in the game, and amazing utility in the form of drain, haste, meso-up, alchemist, and dark sight (yes I realize two of these skills apply to the party as party buffs, but if a party has a hermit, they are unlikely to recruit an archer). Should this class ALSO have the highest single target DPS and decent multi target damage aswell? 

[opman]

well hermits gotta hunt/buy stars n rocks, these costs mesos n slots space...

[Kradia]

I'm all for slightly buffing less popular classes to bring them up to par with the rest. An immobile ranged class dealing less dps than the most mobile and arguably most fun class in the game is just absurd to me.

All classes have different strengths and weaknesses. A hermit's only weakness is their gear/items being expensive, but that doesn't matter when you're profiting from level 10. They get drain and never have to use a hp potion from around level 5X-6X.

There is absolutely no reason to choose an archer over hermit unless you want to play something different. As a hermit main, I'd love to see archers be best dps so there is actually more reason to choose the class over any other. In fact, a +10% crit chance increase wouldn't even be enough to make them even. Rangers specifically, should be given a +10% damage increase on Strafe as well, to differentiate a bit from Crossbowmen. Or like days mentioned, have their weapons' attack speed boosted.

I make my arguments based on class popularity. There is a reason hermits are so much more popular. If they were remotely even, archers would've been played as much. When you're choosing a class to play, the decision you should be making is what you enjoy playing as and want to bring to the game/excel at. If you choose archer, you're choosing it to be best dps. If you're choosing thief, it's because of their fun skills. If you're choosing warrior, it's because you like being up close in their face, wacking them and being tanky. And so on.

+1

Edited February 22, 2021 by Kradia

[Juneee]

I mean maplestory is inherently an unbalanced game. It will be difficult trying to balance out each class to make them as strong as the other. You can even argue that making every class balanced was not even their intention in the first place (pre-4th job). Thats why WKs exist, thats why I/L mages exist. There will always be classes that are weaker than the other. and thats why its also called dk-priest-hermit story. These are the meta classes, unarguably the best 3 classes in the game.
 

But things get 'rectified' later on, in 4th job rangers get their much needed buff. Snipers not so much. But then you are introduced with broken mage ultis. This balancing act will never stop. Thats why games these days gets re-balanced frequently, over couple of seasons. No longer there will be a game that has a single meta throughout its lifespan. The game's meta changes over its course for a modern game. But unfortunately, the specific Maple Story that we are on is a 15 year old game. and to be even more specific, this server is/was supposed to be old school just like how it used to be in that time period. At this point we are talking about a fully customized version of a specific version of maple story, if we were to do that. Then the server cannot/should not promote as such:

Quote

 We provide the most authentic experience of Pre-BB GMS but without any Pay To Win.

anyway my point of hermits being insanely expensive is that, it is just that. Not every hermit can afford to be uncontested rank 1 dps over the other classes. Other classes can and do out damage  hermits as well.. I mean good god, just look at Jack and say he's lacking in dps....? No doubt hermit is the more popular class (mobility is king in this game, who doesn't like to play the most mobile class in game, damage aside.) But demand and supply does its job. The more popular class is infinitely more expensive to fund than the others. Which goes back to what i said above, this makes not every hermit able to be the uncontested rank1 dps.

We can all agree that snipers are fine the way they are, right? If we were to customize old school maple and start balancing classes,  I agree that releasing/making ranger's bow att speed one step up faster than xbow's would do the job . I am against buffing the crit skill whether its (% chance to proc or higher dmg%), because with that you effectively buff not just 1v1 dps, but also mobbing ability as well which they already excel at. Which will simply be too good for 2nd job and early to mid 3rd job. I mean arrow rain/eruption is already so so good at fog and pirates. and Snipers (Rangers as well? maybe a little later than Snipers) already get to go to gobies (meta spot for best exp rates) at early 8x levels. Unlike hermits who only go there at 95++, provided they are not busy farming for their ilbis or mesos that is..

Which brings me to one very important thing, the fact that Snipers can unlock gobies training so early on, will excel their levels and in turn just opens up access to lvl 90 and 100 gears even quicker as well. So along with levels and better gears, their growth is accelerated much faster compared to your Hermits. That's how Jack, Uriel and Tien were able to climb rankings so fast. If you were there when they were active, you know how much faster they were in levels compared to the hermit peers at those levels. They just need a decently scrolled xbow and they can then just focus on goby training all the way.. Hermits gets distracted by the very need to farm for stars, or to farm mesos to buy stars. Sure they can go tobis-only and start goby training, but then again they will need maxed SP + MU + avenger to even do decently at gobis. Iirc, gobies arent even that good exp for hermits pre-100. So realistically speaking your hermits will only get to gobies at 100+, meanwhile to get to 100 takes them an eternity because they are single target. But Rangers/Snipers blaze through 80-100 because of Pirates and Gobies.

Edited February 22, 2021 by Juneee

[Bellocringe]

I think the cost of stars isn't as serious as a point as people make it out to be. My reason for thinking that is because stars are so evergreen. They never get outclassed by new gear (sans the newer stars I don't see us getting ever) and every hermit needs them. Therefore, they are about as close to liquid assets as you can get in an item. The price generally trends downwards as more stars are introduced to the economy, but compared to a year ago, they are still pretty high value items, losing less than half their value. That's not too bad of depreciation over the period of time I think, especially since the game is so 'solved' at this point. The only ways they exit the economy are dropping/npcing or people quitting. It's not so much money sunk, but given a different form that is almost as good as straight mesos, since they can be converted pretty easily.

[Juneee]

Quote

2 minutes ago, Bellocringe said:

I think the cost of stars isn't as serious as a point as people make it out to be. My reason for thinking that is because stars are so evergreen. They never get outclassed by new gear (sans the newer stars I don't see us getting ever) and every hermit needs them. Therefore, they are about as close to liquid assets as you can get in an item. The price generally trends downwards as more stars are introduced to the economy, but compared to a year ago, they are still pretty high value items, losing less than half their value. That's not too bad of depreciation over the period of time I think, especially since the game is so 'solved' at this point. The only ways they exit the economy are dropping/npcing or people quitting. It's not so much money sunk, but given a different form that is almost as good as straight mesos, since they can be converted pretty easily.

Because you are thinking of the destination. What about the journey to get to that destination? 
Sure if you have 20 sets of ilbis and one day you decide you want cash, its payday for you. You can be next familymart.

But how did you even get to the point of 20 sets of ilbis in the very first place if not through farming them or farming the mesos (30m each btw) to buy them off others? It takes a HUGE amount of TIME to do that. You also forget how scarce those things are, even if you had the mesos to buy them, you dont have anyone to buy it off from. So you have to spend time farming them at vikings. Sure you get some couple of levels here and there in the process of doing so.

Meanwhile if you're an archer, all that time spent is converted into exceedingly decent to fast exp rates, at pirates and gobies later on because your AoE skills is not a joke. As early as  80+ or whenever rain/eruption is maxed. 

[days]

44 minutes ago, Juneee said:

I mean maplestory is inherently an unbalanced game. It will be difficult trying to balance out each class to make them as strong as the other. You can even argue that making every class balanced was not even their intention in the first place (pre-4th job). Thats why WKs exist, thats why I/L mages exist. There will always be classes that are weaker than the other. and thats why its also called dk-priest-hermit story. These are the meta classes, unarguably the best 3 classes in the game.
 

But things get 'rectified' later on, in 4th job rangers get their much needed buff. Snipers not so much. But then you are introduced with broken mage ultis. This balancing act will never stop. Thats why games these days gets re-balanced frequently, over couple of seasons. No longer there will be a game that has a single meta throughout its lifespan. The game's meta changes over its course for a modern game. But unfortunately, the specific Maple Story that we are on is a 15 year old game. and to be even more specific, this server is/was supposed to be old school just like how it used to be in that time period. At this point we are talking about a fully customized version of a specific version of maple story, if we were to do that. Then the server cannot/should not promote as such:

anyway my point of hermits being insanely expensive is that, it is just that. Not every hermit can afford to be uncontested rank 1 dps over the other classes. Other classes can and do out damage  hermits as well.. I mean good god, just look at Jack and say he's lacking in dps....? No doubt hermit is the more popular class (mobility is king in this game, who doesn't like to play the most mobile class in game, damage aside.) But demand and supply does its job. The more popular class is infinitely more expensive to fund than the others. Which goes back to what i said above, this makes not every hermit able to be the uncontested rank1 dps.

We can all agree that snipers are fine the way they are, right? If we were to customize old school maple and start balancing classes,  I agree that releasing/making ranger's bow att speed one step up faster than xbow's would do the job . I am against buffing the crit skill whether its (% chance to proc or higher dmg%), because with that you effectively buff not just 1v1 dps, but also mobbing ability as well which they already excel at. Which will simply be too good for 2nd job and early to mid 3rd job. I mean arrow rain/eruption is already so so good at fog and pirates. and Snipers (Rangers as well? maybe a little later than Snipers) already get to go to gobies (meta spot for best exp rates) at early 8x levels. Unlike hermits who only go there at 95++, provided they are not busy farming for their ilbis or mesos that is..

Which brings me to one very important thing, the fact that Snipers can unlock gobies training so early on, will excel their levels and in turn just opens up access to lvl 90 and 100 gears even quicker as well. So along with levels and better gears, their growth is accelerated much faster compared to your Hermits. That's how Jack, Uriel and Tien were able to climb rankings so fast. If you were there when they were active, you know how much faster they were in levels compared to the hermit peers at those levels. They just need a decently scrolled xbow and they can then just focus on goby training all the way.. Hermits gets distracted by the very need to farm for stars, or to farm mesos to buy stars. Sure they can go tobis-only and start goby training, but then again they will need maxed SP + MU + avenger to even do decently at gobis. Iirc, gobies arent even that good exp for hermits pre-100. So realistically speaking your hermits will only get to gobies at 100+, meanwhile to get to 100 takes them an eternity because they are single target. But Rangers/Snipers blaze through 80-100 because of Pirates and Gobies.

 

I'm only going discuss the points which I disagree with you on, if I don't address something you can assume I agree with it. 

I would be completely fine with balance changes not being done due to the "authentic experience" that the server is promoting. However the fact is this "authentic experience" is already false, as Arnah has adjusted many aspects of the game already, it is very far from how the game actually played back in the day. Most notable changes are NLC pots, no Gachapon, changes to specific maps and spawn rates, and obviously no 4th job, the list goes on though. 

I would never say that Jack is lacking in DPS, but if we compare Jack a 141 Sniper, to a 141 Hermit with similarly scrolled gear, the 141 Hermit will out DPS Jack in nearly every scenario, besides specific maps where Arrow Eruption spamming is possible.

I see no problem with buffing mobbing DPS aswell indirectly with the crit chance, seeing as Avenger does more percent damage over every Sniper and Ranger mobbing skill. Fog and pirates are one of the very few maps in the game, including gobies, where Rain/Erruption are used often without any set-up (besides low level maps, which no one trains at except for events). Most maps the archer will group up all the enemies, puppet, then use arrow bomb/ iron arrow from a distance. All this grouping up uses alot of pots and takes alot of time. Is making the AOE damage a little stronger really such a big issue when so much time is already wasted grouping the mobs up?

Regarding gobies, archers and hermits go at around the same time, Hermits go at 88 when they max avenger, and archers go at around 85 when they get Rain/Eruption to a decent level. 

Snipers being able to rank up from 8x-11x so fast, has nothing to do with the issue. That just proves that gobies are broken. I've seen hermits fly through those levels in a similar time as well, for example wtfellie, or starved. Probably many more that I don't know about too well. 

[Juneee]

Quote

5 minutes ago, days said:

 

I'm only going discuss the points which I disagree with you on, if I don't address something you can assume I agree with it. 

I would be completely fine with balance changes not being done due to the "authentic experience" that the server is promoting. However the fact is this "authentic experience" is already false, as Arnah has adjusted many aspects of the game already, it is very far from how the game actually played back in the day. Most notable changes are NLC pots, no Gachapon, changes to specific maps and spawn rates, and obviously no 4th job, the list goes on though. 

I would never say that Jack is lacking in DPS, but if we compare Jack a 141 Sniper, to a 141 Hermit with similarly scrolled gear, the 141 Hermit will out DPS Jack in nearly every scenario, besides specific maps where Arrow Eruption spamming is possible.

I see no problem with buffing mobbing DPS aswell indirectly with the crit chance, seeing as Avenger does more percent damage over every Sniper and Ranger mobbing skill. Fog and pirates are one of the very few maps in the game, including gobies, where Rain/Erruption are used often without any set-up (besides low level maps, which no one trains at except for events). Most maps the archer will group up all the enemies, puppet, then use arrow bomb/ iron arrow from a distance. All this grouping up uses alot of pots and takes alot of time. Is making the AOE damage a little stronger really such a big issue when so much time is already wasted grouping the mobs up?

Regarding gobies, archers and hermits go at around the same time, Hermits go at 88 when they max avenger, and archers go at around 85 when they get Rain/Eruption to a decent level. 

Snipers being able to rank up from 8x-11x so fast, has nothing to do with the issue. That just proves that gobies are broken. I've seen hermits fly through those levels in a similar time as well, for example wtfellie, or starved. Probably many more that I don't know about too well. 

Too many things you say are just straight up not true with what is actually reality. 
You are talking about a similarly funded 141 Hermit and Sniper? I can guarantee you no way a 200m, funded Sniper vs a 200m funded Hermit will deal the same DPS (or at least the Hermit as you say dealing higher DPS than the Sniper). I mean the stars to train on alone cost 160m for 20 sets of steelys at 8mil a pop. If you're going to be mixing tobis up in there and saying hermits still do better dps than the sniper. I dont know what to tell you.

Exp rates of Snipers and Hermits really are not comparable, it is not even debatable. Ellie just plays much more, and with slime HS-ing her for basically every single time she trains of course she levels up fast. Also you are talking about ellie who is already a funded hermit to begin with. She was doing like almost 3.5k+ per crit line at fog at early lvl 70s with steelies.. It's just pure numbers, you cant argue with it. Snipers to go Gobies at 85+. Hermits absolutely do not get max avenger at 88 (lmao). They need max SP and max avenger at the very least, you can say screw it for meso up but no sane unfunded hermit will forego meso up before avenger. That itself brings the hermit to level 97. You are talking about single target hitting hermit getting to level 97 (or 90 if the madlad skips meso up) vs mobbing snipers from 80 onwards with max eruption and lvl 1 strafe. And you have to take into account all that time, the hermit is not even farming for his stars yet. we are assuming he already has at least a couple steelys and the rest are tobis.

The very fact that archers get to abuse broken gobies at a much earlier level than hermits is already proof enough. 

[Bellocringe]

33 minutes ago, Juneee said:

Because you are thinking of the destination. What about the journey to get to that destination? 
Sure if you have 20 sets of ilbis and one day you decide you want cash, its payday for you. You can be next familymart.

But how did you even get to the point of 20 sets of ilbis in the very first place if not through farming them or farming the mesos (30m each btw) to buy them off others? It takes a HUGE amount of TIME to do that. You also forget how scarce those things are, even if you had the mesos to buy them, you dont have anyone to buy it off from. So you have to spend time farming them at vikings. Sure you get some couple of levels here and there in the process of doing so.

Meanwhile if you're an archer, all that time spent is converted into exceedingly decent to fast exp rates, at pirates and gobies later on because your AoE skills is not a joke. As early as  80+ or whenever rain/eruption is maxed. 

I understand the destination part, but seeing how I have managed so far on a limited inventory, I know that more frequent pot shop trips really aren't the huge deal they are made out to be. Most early maps are only a little bit away from a town, and a couple minutes of downtime is a perfectly reasonable tradeoff for only having 0-2 sets of ilbis and some other stars instead of having 20 sets of ilbis. The only cases where capacity really matters are bosses, and those maps that are very far from town, which seem to be fewer and fewer up until Leafre came around.

The issue about having to farm mesos or farm stars isn't that bad either since they are almost as good as cash for anyone hunting them, and the enemies that drop them typically are very popular to hunt for that purpose. No one is going to gatekeepers to farm a dark arund aside from people that have no other means of getting one. Getting access to meso up is also a huge deal when it comes to meso farming, so hunting for stars is especially valuable for a hermit.

Even then, if you're stuck using tobis for a long time, those are pretty much dirt cheap, and you won't be a bad class just based on the fact that you only have those. You will not be a #1 damage dealer, but it's not like you're suddenly hitting 1s with anything cheaper than a steely.

[days]

4 minutes ago, Juneee said:

Too many things you say are just straight up not true with what is actually reality. 
You are talking about a similarly funded 141 Hermit and Sniper? I can guarantee you no way a 200m, funded Sniper vs a 200m funded Hermit will deal the same DPS (or at least the Hermit as you say dealing higher DPS than the Sniper). I mean the stars to train on alone cost 160m for 20 sets of steelys at 8mil a pop. If you're going to be mixing tobis up in there and saying hermits still do better dps than the sniper. I dont know what to tell you.

Exp rates of Snipers and Hermits really are not comparable, it is not even debatable. Ellie just plays much more, and with slime HS-ing her for basically every single time she trains of course she levels up fast. Also you are talking about ellie who is already a funded hermit to begin with. She was doing like almost 3.5k+ per crit line at fog at early lvl 70s with steelies.. It's just pure numbers, you cant argue with it. Snipers to go Gobies at 85+. Hermits absolutely do not get max avenger at 88 (lmao). They need max SP and max avenger at the very least, you can say screw it for meso up but no sane unfunded hermit will forego meso up before avenger. That itself brings the hermit to level 97. You are talking about single target hitting hermit getting to level 97 (or 90 if the madlad skips meso up) vs mobbing snipers from 80 onwards with max eruption and lvl 1 strafe. And you have to take into account all that time, the hermit is not even farming for his stars yet. we are assuming he already has at least a couple steelys and the rest are tobis.

The very fact that archers get to abuse broken gobies at a much earlier level than hermits is already proof enough. 

I never said similarly funded, i said similarly scrolled. When did this turn into a discussion about Snipers versus Hermits rates at early 3rd job. That is not the point of this thread. There is much more to the game then just this level range or this training area. Also, if a archer were to go to gobies with lvl 1 strafe, they would have a HORRIBLE time. Hitting lines of 200 on bonefish / houses would reduce training speed drastically. If you're insisting an archer would go that early to gobies with only max AOE, then its not un reasonable to consider a hermit going to bonefish with max ME and max avenger at 8x. But like I said, focusing on only these level ranges and this ONE training area is not the point of this discussion. I won't reply to anything else talking about this. 

[Kradia]

1 hour ago, Juneee said:

I mean maplestory is inherently an unbalanced game. It will be difficult trying to balance out each class to make them as strong as the other.

This is why I was talking about class popularity. To make more people play the less popular classes, they need a reason to exist within the meta. It only makes sense that an immobile class does the most amount of dps, while thieves are about mobility, fun skills and having an overtuned kit in general.

Take "balance" out of the equation because such a thing will never exist in Maple. You can only tweak things to make them more in-line with each other and that would make sense. But there should be a clear reason to choose either of the archer class over hermit. Right now, I believe there is none unless you like playing in a harder difficulty. 🙂

1 hour ago, Juneee said:

I am against buffing the crit skill whether its (% chance to proc or higher dmg%), because with that you effectively buff not just 1v1 dps, but also mobbing ability as well which they already excel at. Which will simply be too good for 2nd job and early to mid 3rd job. I mean arrow rain/eruption is already so so good at fog and pirates. and Snipers (Rangers as well? maybe a little later than Snipers) already get to go to gobies (meta spot for best exp rates) at early 8x levels. Unlike hermits who only go there at 95++, provided they are not busy farming for their ilbis or mesos that is..

The difference in exp gain over time between 2nd job thieves and archers is crazy. Just because a class is capable of mobbing early doesn't mean it's good. Thieves kill shit way faster in general.

You keep mentioning ilbis, but the reality is that you don't need ilbis to play the game as a hermit. You're just fine using kumbis or tobis and you'll still be faster at killing than either archer class. I'd even make the bold guess that a hermit on subis probably kills faster than either archer class. You can just choose to buy the ilbis at one point, when you can afford them. And the sickest thing is that you will be able to afford them.

Regarding gobies, archers have an easier time there at lower levels, while hermits in general accelerate their exp with levels/gear. But hermits still end up on top in the end. I'm curious if we're even playing the same game.

[Juneee]

Quote

9 minutes ago, Bellocringe said:

I understand the destination part, but seeing how I have managed so far on a limited inventory, I know that more frequent pot shop trips really aren't the huge deal they are made out to be. Most early maps are only a little bit away from a town, and a couple minutes of downtime is a perfectly reasonable tradeoff for only having 0-2 sets of ilbis and some other stars instead of having 20 sets of ilbis. The only cases where capacity really matters are bosses, and those maps that are very far from town, which seem to be fewer and fewer up until Leafre came around.

The issue about having to farm mesos or farm stars isn't that bad either since they are almost as good as cash for anyone hunting them, and the enemies that drop them typically are very popular to hunt for that purpose. No one is going to gatekeepers to farm a dark arund aside from people that have no other means of getting one. Getting access to meso up is also a huge deal when it comes to meso farming, so hunting for stars is especially valuable for a hermit.

Even then, if you're stuck using tobis for a long time, those are pretty much dirt cheap, and you won't be a bad class just based on the fact that you only have those. You will not be a #1 damage dealer, but it's not like you're suddenly hitting 1s with anything cheaper than a steely.

The fact that you brought up dark arunds among all of GK's drops and that you dont know hermits like kradia and donny used to religiously farm GK for the mambas and eclipses pre-leafre, tells me everything i need to know.

Also something else tells me you dont know how fast 20 sets of stars run out with SP on and avenger costing 6 stars per cast. 

 

Edited February 22, 2021 by Juneee

[Bellocringe]

7 minutes ago, Juneee said:

The fact that brought up dark arunds among all of GK's drops and that you dont know hermits like kradia and donny used to religiously farm GK for the mambas and eclipses pre-leafre, tells me everything i need to know.

Also something else tells me you dont know how fast 20 sets of stars run out with SP on and avenger costing 6 stars per cast. 

 

The only reason I brought up GK's dark arund drop is because no one would hunt them if that was all they dropped. I can't say the same about mambas and eclipses, because those are for classes that people actually play, and now that they are available elsewhere, who is left farming GKs for that dark arund? 🙂

 

Also, the 20 sets of stars lifespan I estimate is longer than the 100 white pots I get to use, but again, the trips to the pot shop really aren't a half hour long odyssey. From vikings, I can town scroll, shop, sell, and get back before drops disappear.

Edited February 22, 2021 by Bellocringe

[days]

1 minute ago, Juneee said:

The fact that you brought up dark arunds among all of GK's drops and that you dont know hermits like kradia and donny used to religiously farm GK for the mambas and eclipses pre-leafre, tells me everything i need to know.

Also something else tells me you dont know how fast 20 sets of stars run out with SP on and avenger costing 6 stars per cast. 

 

I believe he brought up GK farming, because you stated archers have an easier time there, but the only reason an archer would go there is for a dark arund. Which is pointless as there are many other (better) ways of getting an arund. And farming there for drops to make money is much less efficient then many other avenues of making money. 

[Kradia]

16 minutes ago, Juneee said:

 Hermits absolutely do not get max avenger at 88 (lmao). They need max SP and max avenger at the very least, you can say screw it for meso up but no sane unfunded hermit will forego meso up before avenger. That itself brings the hermit to level 97.

Why not max SP then Avenger? I don't get it. A hermit with subis can go to gobies at 88 if they wanted to. In fact, I imagine it's probably more efficient. You'll level up quicker, kill faster by leveling and gain more mesos. Then you just buy ilbis in the market. 

I only chose to do vikings for 6 months and farm up my stars because it was a personal goal of mine and I wanted to enjoy the Ludi content. I could've just went to gobies until level 160, then farmed ilbis more efficiently then. Or I could've straight up bought all of them.

 

[Juneee]

All i can say is, 4th job is coming whether people like it or not 🙂

 

I have spoken.

[Kradia]

Bumping this because I feel like it was kind of forgotten. I'd like to see some love to Bowmen.
 

On 2/21/2021 at 9:04 PM, days said:

After more consideration, and discussion the real issue isn't archers damage, it is the rangers DPS against both hermits and snipers. A smart way to buff ranger DPS without changing any skills would be to increase the attack speed of the Metus, Nisrock, and Dragon Shiner and possibly even the Arund and the Hinkel, to be equivalent to the Blue Metus. This would allow rangers to shoot strafe faster, and be on-par with at least the DPS of snipers. 

This in addition to a +10% critical chance increase would do a lot and then we could on from there.

[McLovin]

 

On 2/22/2021 at 4:12 PM, days said:

Honestly, a change to endgame bows attack speed would be a big enough buff to not warrant a crit chance buff in my opinion.

Totally agree with the above.

Attack speed increase for Rangers (to "Fast") would be a great balance change to bring them on the same level as Snipers.

Not sure how I feel about the suggested critical hit increase for all archers since it could easily turn OP. We would have to test that on Tespia to find out how much of an increase (if any) would be fair. 

Edited August 17, 2021 by McLovin