CPQ Discussion Thread

[Ghost]

CPQ is planned to be added.  This is a thread to discuss the pros and cons of it, as well as changes deemed necessary to keep it balanced.  Please share your thoughts about the PQ and keep it constructive.  This is an ongoing thread and I hope it will be taken seriously. 

Pros:

-PVP content, which was the original intent of the PQ

-Provides players access to another PQ immediately after finishing KPQ instead of having to suffer the 31-35+ for LPQ

-More content and consistent with the server progression

-We finally can fill that empty pendant slot with Spiegelman Necklace (likely only pendant in the foreseeable future)

Cons:

-Lack of player base diminishes the PVP concept, and will lead to mule abuse or trading wins (trading wins is debatable since it was in GMS)

-Level requirement conflicts with LPQ, and EXP from CPQ is significantly better than LPQ.  Concern is that LPQ, with lack of glasses reward, will become even more dead.

-Easily can be abused with mules for free wins (unless Arnah has undisclosed plans to prevent this)

-Coin farming for NPCable equips; compare this to rewards from LPQ and meso gain is better from CPQ since most rewards from LPQ are pots and useless scrolls

 

Please provide any thoughts below and feel free to argue against this list.  Thanks for your consideration.

 

Edited March 19, 2021 by Ghost

[Tujou]

I’d like to see cpq become a 1v1 personally. It makes getting into a match easier.

A 1v1 could also have easy restrictions placed against mules (can only be matched against a specific user once a day)

1v1s also leave this content available for Ironman accounts because the party restriction is gone

as far as leaving the 31-35 gap, I think it’s okay if the game doesn’t have a PQ for all levels because typically if a level range has a PQ then it’s done instead of grinding because it tends to be much more efficient. The best in slot pendant (only pendant) is more than enough incentive to run cpq I think- no need to reward large amounts of EXP

Edited March 19, 2021 by Tujou

[Arnah]

The mule usage pretty much makes it worthless to add unless it is fixed.

2 people can party up and 1 or both can setup a mule for the opponents.

 

I'll list couple ideas I had for exp changes but never really did more than be ideas.

Remove exp from mobs and completely push it to be based on CP. This works even better with all the ideas below.
Make rank based on your CP rather then the teams.
If team CP now means nothing, give a boost? based on the total amount the team has(excluding yourself).
Give additional Exp based on CP spent. Only issue I see with this one is you can spam debuffs at the last minute(Since they stack) but workarounds can be put. Or just don't count the CP spent on debuffs towards this value.
 

Some other thoughts are maybe nerf pot drops but I would have to see how good the current rates are.

 

Obviously none of this is confirmed and honestly without a fix existing for muling & wintrading I kinda lost interest in adding CPQ but still want the pendant to exist somehow.
I could IP check for mules but then anyone with family is screwed. Wont stop everyone but would stop most, also, since it is the "Channel Server" it has less information on potential bypassing of this rule too.

[Noscible]

Another possible way to implement the pendant without CPQ is to add a "custom" ludi exchange quest with Spigelmann being the NPC. Similar to orbis exchange, you trade 100 ludi etc to get a prize (scrolls, pots, etc.) + 1 maple coin. This would also incentivize players to train at ludi (especially deep ludi). 

Edited March 20, 2021 by Noscible

[KDOT]

1 hour ago, Noscible said:

Another possible way to implement the pendant without CPQ is to add a "custom" ludi exchange quest with Spigelmann being the NPC. Similar to orbis exchange, you trade 100 ludi etc to get a prize (scrolls, pots, etc.) + 1 maple coin. This would also incentivize players to train at ludi (especially deep ludi). 

I think this is another idea which helps the veteran players and not much the newer players.

I could see cancelling cpq and adding lpq "stamps" (like 1 per completed run) with options to exchange for necklace or other stuff.

since lpq runs are pretty long you could put in even scrolls in exchange for 30+ (random number) stamps in-case somebody wants to farm that way, I feel like it may be a bit custom but it is a change that actually helps new players more than old ones + lpq as whole is very nostalgic to most of the playerbase.

I've been lpqing this past week to level my hb mule and noticed Mrkrabs and Hazel doing a lot of lpq which really helps some casual new players that prefer pq's instead of grinding.

Pq's in lower levels is pretty good for new players in order to find friends in the server too, which is very important in a social game, once you have friends ingame you're more motivated to play since you have people to talk / grind with, kinda how you can meet future business partners at university.

[Trashman]

Dont like PQs, so doesn't really affect my opinion

[Phantom]

Yeah Carnival PQ exp is way too OP. It will kill Ludi PQ and no one will ever LPQ  again if CPQ is released.

CPQ is like THE ideal platform for afk mule leeching. If you're a big time multi-mule operator you couldn't ask for a better gift.  At least with Ludi PQ and Kerning PQ, every character has to keep moving in order to go on to the next stage. You can't park afk mules from start to finish like you can in CPQ.

IMHO it would be a grave mistake to add CPQ to this server.

I like Noscible and KDOT's ideas, both. I think if you gave out Spiegleman's necklace for everyone who did 30 (or w/e) LPQ's, that would be great.

Edited March 21, 2021 by Phantom

[Emperor]

Well, Carnival PQ exp is too way OP, and need to be nerfed or make it below LPQ, so LPQ can still be the meta.

Carnival PQ is the only way for lv 31~35 to not suffer from grind, a lot of new players suffer in the past in GMS or in Peenix, like my friends from real life that tried to play peenix.

Also, If Carnival PQ Coins be untradeable with untradeable neckless so the one who really need that will use it and no mules to transfer it to veteran players.

Another thing, Carnival PQ the only one who make LPQ because dead, so I think maybe to nerf the level to 31~41 and in 41 stop.

You really cant do nothing about trade wins, and about mule stuff, but you can create(I hope it possible) system to track 1 MAC ADDRESS per Carnival PQ, so family not will be hurt.

If someone use 2 computers it will not your problem.

And make it to be Minimum 4 Players and no 2, so it will make anything easier.
What do you think about it?
Hope for serious answer.

[Senja]

Disclaimer: I have not done a single LPQ on Phoenix and the EXP numbers I used were entirely from research.

 

LPQ requires 6 players between level 35 and 50 in order to participate.

The current total LPQ EXP gains from completing 9 stages assuming the player does not kill a single mob during the PQ: 30,300 EXP.

An LPQ run ranges in time taken, and can take anywhere between 20-45 minutes depending on party composition and individual party members’ proficiency and experience in running the PQ. Taking the average time to complete an LPQ run (32.5 minutes), the average EXP/minute from doing a single LPQ run is 932.30 EXP. 

*Note that this does not include downtime from things such as needing to look for a party, replacing party members that left and replenishing potions. 

 

CPQ requires 2-6 players between level 30 and 50 in order to participate. Coincidentally, CPQ fills the level 30-35 gap that is absent before LPQ (this is assuming the player goes the route of reaching level 30 through KPQ and intends to continue levelling up through PQs). 

The EXP gain from CPQ varies, depending on the amount of Carnival Points (CP) the team accumulates over the course of a run and on whether the team wins or loses the “match.”

Each CPQ run takes 10 minutes. Not accounting for EXP gained from killing mobs during a run, the EXP rewarded from each run is as follows:

WIN

-500+ CP (Rank A) : 30,000 EXP (3,000 EPM)

-300-499 CP (Rank B) : 25,500 EXP (2,550 EPM)

-100-299 CP (Rank C) : 15,000 EXP (1,500 EPM)

-1-99 CP (Rank D) : 7,500 EXP (750 EPM)

LOSE

-500+ CP (Rank A) : 10,000 EXP (1,000 EPM)

-300-499 CP (Rank B) : 8,500 EXP (850 EPM)

-100-299 CP (Rank C) : 7,500 EXP (750 EPM)

-1-99 CP (Rank D) : 1,000 EXP (100 EPM)

*EPM - EXP/minute

 

Notice that should a party win a single CPQ match with Rank A, even after disregarding the EXP gained from killing mobs during a match (it’s a ridiculously high amount), it easily trumps over the EPM from LPQ. Not to mention that it takes half, if not less of the time it takes to complete an LPQ run. It is only when the player loses a match with Rank B that the EPM from LPQ even comes close to being comparable. Again, this does not take into consideration the copious amounts of EXP gained from killing the mobs during a CPQ run.

One of the biggest concerns for the addition of CPQ into Phoenix is the potential emergence of hard leeching. This is due to how the maps in CPQ are designed to facilitate players AFK-ing and the fact that CPQ can be done with only 4 people (2v2) instead of 6 for LPQ.

Another concern is that the addition of CPQ back in live MapleStory servers killed the viability of LPQ.

 

In order to prevent LPQ from being obsolete, I would like to propose the following adjustments for CPQ:

-Remove EXP gains from killing mobs
-Reward EXP only based on accumulated team CP
-Adjust the EXP rewards from CPQ to be significantly less than LPQ

The Spiegelmann’s Necklace in and of itself is enough incentive for players to participate in CPQ. With the release of CPQ, it will be the only obtainable pendant for players up to obtaining a Horntail Pendant. 

In many cases, the EXP gained from killing mobs can be more than the EXP gained from winning a CPQ match, thus why win trading was rampant back in live MapleStory. Winning was simply seen as a nice bonus. The caveat here being that the EXP gained from mobs have many variables tied to it such as the types of mob summoned, the time it takes to summon the mobs, buffs/debuffs and the players’ speed in killing the mobs.

By removing EXP gains from killing mobs, it will encourage all players to participate as only winning with Rank A would make a CPQ run worth the while compared to LPQ. 

One could argue that high-level or well-funded players will consistently beat low-level or lower-funded players. A system could be implemented by the developers to level the playing field and make it so that damage in CPQ scales only with level and not items. This way, a player in CPQ can only gain an advantage over others through levelling up. I am unsure as to the technical difficulty of achieving this, but this is the only viable solution I can come up with at the time of writing this post. 

I read in one of his replies to this thread that Arnah had an idea on rewarding EXP based on individual CP and not team CP in order to discourage AFK-ing players and mules. I reckon with appropriate adjustments made to the EXP rewards, it could be enough of a deterrent for players looking towards CPQ to gain EXP while idling. 
 

My proposed EXP adjustments is as follows:

WIN

-500+ CP (Rank A) : 7,500 EXP (750 EPM)

-300-499 CP (Rank B) : 6,375 EXP (637.5 EPM)

-100-299 CP (Rank C) : 3,750 EXP (375 EPM)

-1-99 CP (Rank D) : 1,875 EXP (187.5 EPM)

LOSE

-500+ CP (Rank A) : 2,500 EXP (250 EPM)

-300-499 CP (Rank B) : 2,125 EXP (212.5 EPM)

-100-299 CP (Rank C) : 1,875 EXP (187.5 EPM)

-1-99 CP (Rank D) : 250 EXP (25 EPM)

*EPM - EXP/minute

 

These EXP adjustments will ensure that LPQ is still superior to CPQ in terms of EXP rewards. This way, the main incentive players have to participate in CPQ would be to obtain the Spiegelmann’s Necklace and/or other rewards. These adjustments would still provide a viable avenue for players to level up between level 30 and 35. LPQ will still be the premier PQ for EXP gains in the level 35-50 bracket. 

Furthermore, with these adjustments win trading will carry significantly less EPM than LPQ (750 EPM from winning CPQ with Rank A vs 932.3 EPM from LPQ).
 

In summary, with these changes, CPQ’s main purpose in the game would be to provide more valuable rewards while also providing a viable EXP avenue to players in the level 30-35 bracket. LPQ will still be the go-to PQ when it comes to levelling up between level 35 and 50.

Edited March 25, 2021 by Senja

[Kradia]

Senja's post is well thought out and I agree with the theory behind it. I can't comment on the numbers proposed, because I never really did much CPQ to know about the numbers behind it. This is definitely a possible way to have CPQ co-exist with LPQ.

Another way to handle this is lowering the CPQ level range from 30-50 down to 30-40. This way, the PQ could be kept mostly unchanged? The coin rewards would have to be higher to compensate for the fact, that you now have 10 levels less to farm coins. Maybe the mobs would need their avoid lowered.

What this proposed change would do, is that CPQ would act as another stepping stone. It would no longer directly compete with LPQ. This would actually help players get to a higher level for LPQ, to be able to contribute with killing Alishar. 

Another thing I'd like to bring to light is the equipment rewards you can get from CPQ coins. Let me quickly mention that I don't know about the specifics, but people have said that the equipment are too good of a way to make a lot of mesos. This should definitely be investigated further.

Finally, I'd like to say that I'm still of the opinion that CPQ is unnecessary and that there are other, more important things to do for the lower level content. The necklace could be made accessible in a different way. 

Edited March 24, 2021 by Kradia

[DannyAmeri]

On 3/24/2021 at 11:56 PM, Kradia said:

Senja's post is well thought out and I agree with the theory behind it. I can't comment on the numbers proposed, because I never really did much CPQ to know about the numbers behind it. This is definitely a possible way to have CPQ co-exist with LPQ.

Another way to handle this is lowering the CPQ level range from 30-50 down to 30-40. This way, the PQ could be kept mostly unchanged? The coin rewards would have to be higher to compensate for the fact, that you now have 10 levels less to farm coins. Maybe the mobs would need their avoid lowered.

What this proposed change would do, is that CPQ would act as another stepping stone. It would no longer directly compete with LPQ. This would actually help players get to a higher level for LPQ, to be able to contribute with killing Alishar. 

Another thing I'd like to bring to light is the equipment rewards you can get from CPQ coins. Let me quickly mention that I don't know about the specifics, but people have said that the equipment are too good of a way to make a lot of mesos. This should definitely be investigated further.

Finally, I'd like to say that I'm still of the opinion that CPQ is unnecessary and that there are other, more important things to do for the lower level content. The necklace could be made accessible in a different way. 

Make necklace drop from Pianus/Black Crow.

[opman]

On 3/19/2021 at 1:23 PM, Ghost said:

-Lack of player base diminishes the PVP concept, and will lead to mule abuse or trading wins (trading wins is debatable since it was in GMS)

 

Trading wins has always been a thing, even in msea and other pserver that had it.

Im neutral in standing for having CPQ and its exchange system. CPQ is always known as the faster route for newplayers from 30-51 (50+ is the 2nd cpq release) in terms of exp.

LPQ: has exp and scrolls (meso n exp oriented)
CPQ: has exp and exchange (exp n risk oriented)

CPQ, does not rewards scrolls but instead exchanges coins collected for necklace (+0-2 all stats 3 slots), marbles and equipments. By scrolling the necklace, players are taking high risks with a possible outcome that may be worthless. Necklace has Avg stats: +1 all stats and +60HP (2/3 slots) from marble scrolls. should coins exchange req for equipments be too easy to farm mesos by npcing it (i do not recall such a meta back in the days), we could always remove the equipment or increase the coins requirement for an equipment exchange. As for the necklace, selling it in the beginning of the hype may net a large profit but not in the long run.

If arnah ever decides to switch necklace out of the PQ and to elsewhere, maybe an elimination quest:

Eliminate 'x' amt of pianus/ papu/ zak Quest for 1 Necklace and 'xx' amt of pianus/ papu/ zak  for marbles (untradeable). Make the item untradeable (1 of a kind only) so u only get 1 quest/item at a time.

[RickSenchez]

cant you add a command to kick anyone who is considered afk by anti-leech? (lets say more then 15 secounds)
that will solve mules problems, and we can say that win trading is banable just like account sharing and i think most of the community will follow.

[NixMar]

On 3/20/2021 at 8:05 AM, Arnah said:

Remove exp from mobs and completely push it to be based on CP. This works even better with all the ideas below.
Make rank based on your CP rather then the teams.
If team CP now means nothing, give a boost? based on the total amount the team has(excluding yourself).
Give additional Exp based on CP spent. Only issue I see with this one is you can spam debuffs at the last minute(Since they stack) but workarounds can be put. Or just don't count the CP spent on debuffs towards this value.

all this made it easier to mule cpq without a real exp reward. you just play both side for like 2mins to get rank A and then have to afk for the remainder time. 

i think CPQ should be a good way to "boost" yourself from early 3x to early lv 4x. most of the made changes didnt stop muling and only made CPQ less fun.

To make it Fun again:

- give more EXP! current its nerfed for more then 50% of the exp u normally get (rank A W=30k L=10k + exp from all the monster kills). Putting a level cap of early 4x would still make it that other places are being used (Lpq).

- have the CP spawn for your own team. then you get a choice: do i spend for better spawn or spend to F the enemy team. (this is when not win trading or muling) so keep it that both teams need to be somewhat close in CP untill a certain point. if both teams are above 500cp they both get rank A and if 1 team has 5xx points and the other 9xx they both should get the max reward. to ensure fights are somewhat even.

 

The coin getting is a good change!