Heal EXP Fix Alternatives

[SHA2048]

Let me start by saying I think this is not a big issue. Just thought it would be cool to have a different fix for the heal EXP abuse.

Suggestion one:

Stop giving heal EXP from a char after 30 seconds of doing no damage.
This would still give EXP for active players and for example during bossing.

Suggestion two:

Disable heal EXP in all maps except a select few whitelisted maps, Ex: Zak, Pap and other common maps where EXP abuse is improbable.

Suggestion three:

Have heal abuse be the same offence like RWT, There is no automatic detection but if someone is caught doing it he will be banned.

[Kradia]

I think a combination of suggestion 1 and 3 is the way to go.

Make checks within the party EXP distribution. Try to cover all the possible bypasses and if someone succeeds bypassing the checks to abuse, temporarily ban that player for abusing.

It's about time clerics and priests get their heal EXP back.

Edited November 2, 2020 by Kradia

[Trashman]

Honestly, I'm for bringing it back in full, no restrictions. If that's too much to ask for, a combination of styles 1 and 3 listed by SHA sound ok to me. The exp heal strat only worked on a select few maps at this time anyways, so by just cutting them out it should be ok. Give a formal warning out to the server that if they are caught abusing a heal exp gain strat, it is a ban.

[Fruit Shop Owner]

Hello everyone, profesional problem solver here. Maybe I shouldn't poke my nose in a topic I'm not entirely familiar with, but let's clarify something for me - what exactly is the "heal abuse" in question? I'm going to assume that it doesn't refer to just actively healing someone without doing damage yourself, because that's kind of a core concept of the healer archetype, and banning for that would be supremely stupid. Is there a mechanic which allows you to heal someone once and go afk while gaining experience? If so, there should be enough solutions for that problem; plus, cleric tends to be sort of a support class that relies on other people so that shouldn't be much of a problem either. Is it something else entirely?

Regardless, a ban is not a solution - it is patchwork at best, used to hold the flow of an overwhelming problem while an actual solution is found and implemented; at worst, it is a way of demonstrating that you hold power over another person, or a kindergarten-style way of "punishing" people - I trust that this server is not like that. 

[SHA2048]

There was a problem of people abusing the exp you get from heal and parking 5 HP mules in squids and just healing them without killing any monsters.
Arnah solved the issue by reducing the exp from heal to 1.

Edited November 2, 2020 by SHA2048
0 = 1

[Fruit Shop Owner]

Ok I think I get the picture. Arnah and company know better than me what would be most comfortably implemented, but for now I'll just address the solution which seems most reasonable to me - #1 . To expand on it, an alternative form might involve a shorter time frame, taking/avoiding damage, and whether this extends to the healer, the healed, or both. The biggest hurdle is probably in the implementation, but I'm sure we can keep coming up with more developer-friendly solutions

[Arnah]

13 hours ago, SHA2048 said:

There was a problem of people abusing the exp you get from heal and parking 5 HP mules in squids and just healing them without killing any monsters.
Arnah solved the issue by reducing the exp from heal to 1.

Also HB cancelling or just replacing HB with a lower level HB.

And I temporarily resolved the issue by disabling heal exp to prevent further abuse until a proper solution was found.


Also something kinda similar to suggestion #1 was brought up internally but no progress has been made in adding it.

[Kradia]

I think this suggestion deserves another look. The fact that the Priests are gaining 1 exp per heal affects the game in many ways.

This is currently what's happening:

- Priests no longer go to Deep Ludi with a Warrior(or any other class for that matter) early (DT, MDT, you name it)

- Priests are rewarded less EXP for being "pocket-priests" at gobies. This affects the lower level priests that go there especially

- Priests don't usually deal damage at bosses like Pap/Zakum/Pianus while the rest of the classes do. Heal EXP was "compensation" for the EXP they miss out on.

Like I mentioned before, a combination of #1 and #3 would be a really good solution.

Edited December 3, 2020 by Kradia

[Fruit Shop Owner]

I see you're still suggesting #3. As a staunch opponent of the "ban mania" that's like...everywhere, I'll have to say a few more things. Again, the solution isn't punishment or banishment - the solution is actually dealing with the problem in question. If there is capacity for abuse after this, counter it with a related and proportional method which removes the problem without removing the player. For example, if caught abusing, that person's heal experience or even heal ability could be temporarily disabled (I'm not sure how difficult that would be to implement, but I imagine the current XP nerf could be adjusted to affect individual people only). You could even stop their experience gain for a while, or even take out some experience/levels. Whatever advantage they may have gained from abusing is now negated. "Abusers" are also members of our community, they aren't faceless masses of sin and malice, and a community doesn't generally exile its members unless they've severely transgressed - which a bug/game mechanic abuser hasn't. 

[Emperor]

Please fix that, it's not fair for priests that actually play with dks in deep ludi.

Edit #1:
Well, #1 Suggestion is the best to avoid abuse, and i don't think #3 Suggestion is fair because it's will disappoint people.
the ban thing is really hard and need to be only on those hackers.
but the first suggestion is the best one, please arnah, fix that, it's not easy to play as a priest on deep ludi with warriors\other classes, or with bosses, the priest need to get exp for the healing, it's not for free you know, like my partner(my gf irl too) think it's not fair to get half from what i get when we train, she can easy get alot of exp because of my HP bar...
Please fix that before xmas.

Edited December 13, 2020 by Emperor

[IWasEatenByAZombie]

As a priest who plays with an (amazing) dk , I used to get better exp for my work , im aware of the leech problems , but i think that there are creative ways to deal with them , like a the solution that Sha Suggested , we work hard to level up, the monsters are really strong and its so hard to level up by yourself as a priest , we deserve to get a good exp like the rest of the party members  , we're the only support class in this server and its will be amazing if we will get good exp too and it will happen if we will have our bonus exp for our healing  this little bonus really help us to level up like the rest of the classes in the serve
 

[dumbz]

I think heal exp should be brought back and squid nerds should not be banned.  Arnah fixed the problem when heal exp = max heal exp from one party member.  Still, squid exp costed a lot of mesos and it's a lot of work for a mere 245k exp/hr.  Just add lie detectors to the squid map like with 94th and 99th.  Also, sauna healing is based.  

[Emperor]

Yeah Arnah, we saw how you make heal not working if the priest not hurt, please bring that back, i want my priest feel appricated for her heal.

Edited December 25, 2020 by Emperor
fixed the gibberish

[DannyAmeri]

Agreed with @Trashman and @Kradia.

 

Bumpz for v49

[Emperor]

When arnah find solution for this because it's like punishment for active priests, you should make it available only from lv 85(hs mules not achieve that lvl)

@Arnah it's like 0.75 EXP for priests like why? it's not fair at all. make the server 0.75 exp to everybody and not only to priests, maybe someone will care about that and not just me.

[Ghost]

I think this is a bigger issue than it set out to be.  I was directed here by Arnah, so I will say my thoughts for what they are worth.  I have played a cleric in LPQ and OPQ both before and after the changes.  The change is a big deal, and I will redundantly again say why.  In all the LPQs I have played in since the change, clerics feel no motivation to heal and, if high enough level, would rather play as attackers.  Otherwise they will afk/only do mage portals as they feel essential to even pqing in the first place.  For going to 94th floor fares better for them anyway, and they know it.

In OPQ, I was one of the few clerics to ever bother with it both before and after the changes.  Most of our EXP came from healing during the boss. It is a major pot burner for clerics with few rewards otherwise.  Fewer than any other class.  Even with HB, clerics need to use MG and burn MP pots during the boss.  Most would rather just train.  And yet, having a cleric is a quintessential motivator for other players to OPQ.  Hence its downfall.  Who even bothers with OPQ now?  Especially as more and more areas become available.  It is a waste of time.  What a shame as the highest level PQ available. 

On to end game content:  what players bother maining priests now?  Those who set out to have mostly quit, and with good reason.  Those with high level priests use it to crog or buff themselves.  The class has been deconstructed and left in ruins.  As a 3rd job only server, the priest has one role: to support.  To heal and buff attackers.  EXP from heal undoubtedly adds up over time compared to the now 1 EXP.  It's simple math.  What incentive is left for someone to main a priest?  With Leafre on its way, asking a priest to deal 50% of a mobs HP is absurb.  They were meant to stay near players to heal them, buff them, and even with heal or shining ray they can't possibly do that.  Even at skelegons or black kents where they have the privilege of holy weakness.

Punishment for those who abused deep aqua healing for easy HS mules should have been commuted long ago when it was apparent.  But since that wasn't the case, I guess suggestion #3 holds no precedence.  Suggestion #1 is absurd as stated above with the release of Leafre, as it seems punishment for those who sacrifice their time making it to such a high level.  Suggestion #2 is the only logical solution and can be implemented.  I have seen the Odin source code of which every server is based on, and a check shouldn't be impossible to add.  

I hate myself for writing this massive wall of text.I appreciate those who bothered to read it and look forward to any feedback.

[Phantom]

Just out of curiosity...  how is it that clerics and low level priests are able to "pocket leech" (whatever that means) at Gobis?  I thought you had to be within 5 levels of the monster being killed to leech any exp in Maple.

Is this not the case in this server?  Level 60 character can leech off level 85 monster?

[Kradia]

24 minutes ago, Phantom said:

Just out of curiosity...  how is it that clerics and low level priests are able to "pocket leech" (whatever that means) at Gobis?  I thought you had to be within 5 levels of the monster being killed to leech any exp in Maple.

Is this not the case in this server?  Level 60 character can leech off level 85 monster?

Gobies are level 85 which means the priest would have to be level 80 to be eligible for leech exp, just like you're saying. But if you deal any damage to a mob, and another person kills that mob, even though the mob is way higher level than you, you also gain some amount of exp. This is vanilla.

[Phantom]

1 hour ago, Kradia said:

But if you deal any damage to a mob, and another person kills that mob, even though the mob is way higher level than you, you also gain some amount of exp. This is vanilla.

Right, but in this case you're supposed to only get exp for the damage that you caused. Not gain any leech exp from party members.

Like, if a level 60 cleric deals 1 heal damage to bone fish, and someone else in his party kills that bone fish,  the cleric is only supposed to get 1 exp from the 1 damage he caused. Not gain 600 exp (or whatever) that he would get if he were within leeching level range.

So again, I'm still puzzled at how clerics are able to leech bone fish.

[Ghost]

7 hours ago, Phantom said:

Right, but in this case you're supposed to only get exp for the damage that you caused. Not gain any leech exp from party members.

Like, if a level 60 cleric deals 1 heal damage to bone fish, and someone else in his party kills that bone fish,  the cleric is only supposed to get 1 exp from the 1 damage he caused. Not gain 600 exp (or whatever) that he would get if he were within leeching level range.

So again, I'm still puzzled at how clerics are able to leech bone fish.

The EXP division formula isn't correct in this server.  That's another issue unrelated to this thread.

[Arnah]

57 minutes ago, Ghost said:

The EXP division formula isn't correct in this server.  That's another issue unrelated to this thread.

Are you going to make that thread then?

[Ghost]

47 minutes ago, Arnah said:

Are you going to make that thread then?

I didn't raise the issue.  I'd appreciate your opinion on what is relevant to this thread.

[Phantom]

I have a suggestion.  How about giving out full exp for healing ONE person?  (not counting the priest himself of course)

So like, when you cast heal and you heal a party member, you get full exp. Then any additional party members that received heal during that spell casting, do not give contribute exp to the priest.

I think there are very few situations where during normal training a priest gets to heal bunch of other party members at the same time.

For instance let's say there's a party grinding at Grim Phantoms, 4 attackers and 1 priest.  Normally you would see the priest running around the map giving HS and heal to everyone.  You would not see all 4 attackers in the same spot.

Unless of course the priest is lazy and the party members are so desperate for HS that they tolerate a priest who just stands in one spot doing nothing, and everyone else comes to the priest every 3 minutes for HS. But in this case, the priest is a D-bag and does not deserve heal exp anyways.

Another common situation is a priest following a DK around at Himes and giving heal. This kind of a priest would stand to benefit quite a bit, as compared to the current zero heal exp.