3rd job v Horntail

[opman]

HORNTAIL
" Kill-able: Ability to Survive with a sufficient/pragmatic pot slots for hour(s) and Kill Horntail with 3rd job skills."

Goal 

 

The goal here is to leave the mechanics/skills (looking out for animations/ utilizing job skills) of bosses intact so as to not turn it into a brain dead content by just pressing the attack skill throughout the run. I believe in not removing the skills casted by Horntail and just tweaking it to suit a survivable 3rd job gameplay. I strongly encourage a vanilla attempt on horntail before changes are to be made. In addition, we can take it as a strategic move should we decide to tweak horntail or items, simply having the idea of a 3rd job server with HT does not appeal at all to some new/existing players due to the large gap in terms of being Pragmatic on a 1x and yes if HT becomes successful, sure. I think we should first tackle having a more healthy and sustainable player-base retention that allows us to have higher turnover into higher lvls in the future.
This thread is made solely to consolidate ideas over lengthy period of time and help assist in any future tweaks deem necessary, rates of changes such as HT health, W/Mdef, WA/MA and others should not take much weightage of importance due to the lack of 3rd job runtime data. This is by no means a 100% accurate guide or whatsoever.

Together, we can contribute towards a healthy balanced gameplay!🙂 

 

Problem

• Warrior
  • Dragon Knight
    • knock off small platform
  • Crusaders & White Knight
    • knock off small platform
    • Short attack reach
• Thieves
  • Hermit
    • 52 'Use' slot limitation due to stars and pots (consider using Power/Elixir)
    • Dispel
    • HP (mentioned in HP requirements)
  • Chief Bandit (considering meso guard)
    • Meso Explosion
    • Dispel
• Archer
  • Dispel
  • HP (mentioned in HP requirements)
• Magicians
  • Dispel

WAYS TO SURVIVE HORNTAIL (to fit a 3rd job server)
Boss related

1. Remove Countdown timer😘
2. Remove Seduce (Mass)
3. Only Seduce (Mass) when tail/legs are dead (min hp req: 6,500 hp, higher req if Arm HP <30% and tail/legs are still alive)
4. Change Seduce (Single) based on Order of Entry (usually warriors enter first followed by ranged, nexon had changes, no idea which arnah chose) 😘
5. Reduce Seduce (Single) duration by 50% (walk half distance, acts as a mechanism to drag the runtime and not to guarantee a death) 😘
6. Allow usage of pots while being Seduced (Single/Mass) (warriors can only survive 1 Touch of Tail/Leg, unless priests follows to heal)
7. Remove Dispel
8. Increase 30 players per run cap to 60. (any higher and we'd face lagging issues with that many players and skills in 1 map)
9. Include i-frame on characters after Dispel is casted (to rebuff)
10. Include 1 torn(s) on each platform for characters to perform i-frame after Dispel is casted (mini custom add) 😘
11. Black Wyvern: Remove Spawn or Spawn 1 only
12. Reduce Horntail's level from 160 to 155 (for dmg reduction sake)
13. Reduce Horntail's Weapon and Magical Defense by 40%
14.  Leafre Buff after entering HT only 😘
    (from +20 WA/MA +50 acc/avoid to -> +40 WA/MA +100 Acc/Avoid +500HP/MP +1,000W/MDef for Infinite hour(s), disappears upon leaving cave.)
15. Horntail Dominator Buff after completion 😘
    (from +40 WA/MA +400 Def to -> +50WA/MA  +120 Acc/Avoid +1,000HP/MP +1,500 W/MDef for 1 hour). Reward based: To incentivize 2 Runs of HT per day (after it expires, Leafre Buff (above) will take effect if player is in HT map), and/or Grinding purposes.
16. Reduce HT health by 25%.
17. Increase HT's Arms, Wings, Heads (pre as well) Hit box.😘

Items related

1. Increase HP bonuses on scrolls ratio (1 stats : >20 HP)
   1. eg: Cape for Dex 60% = +2 Dex = > 40 HP worth (for Scroll for Cape for HP 60%)
2. Increase Scroll for Helm HP 60% (+10hp -> +30hp)😘
3. Release Scroll for Pet HP 😘
   1. 10% = 90hp, 60% = 30hp
      1. 1 pet = 7 slots = 210hp max at 7/7 passing rate of 60%
      2. 3 pet (multi-pet) = 21 slots = 630hp max at 7/7 passing rate of 60%
4. Add Pianus Drop: HP Cape (0-100 hp, 5 slots) 😘
5. Release HP Ludi Cape (100-150hp 5 slot only, rarer drop as compared to the +1 stats currently)
   1. currently 1 stats bonus on cape = 16-20 fresh ap hp, using 100-150hp (5-8 stats worth) to incentivize players to use a hp cape.
6. Release Monster Book Ring (10 Tiers, +100hp/mp +1 stat per tier)
   1. +1,000hp/mp +10stats at Tier 10 (1,600 hp/mp bonus after HB)
   2. Alternative gameplay of progessive card collecting rather than PQs and Exp chasers, brings players to explore more maps
7. Release BWG (7 slots, via Showa Exchange or Gacha)
   1. Using rates: 1x 10% and 6 x 60%, 4x 60% (for normal 5 slot gloves)
      1. BWG = +15 Att
      2. WG = +11 Att
   2. +4 Att boost seems fair
8. More USE slot expansion (possible future)😘
9. Release 30% scrolls (adjusted to prevent some 10s/60s from going irrelevant)
10. Release Hat/ Top/ Btm/ Ear stats scrolls 
11. Ciders (untradeable)
    1. Original: Weapon Attack +20, accuracy -5, lasts for 5 minutes (stackable: If im not wrong Msea had it, non-stackable: GMS)
    2. New (if necessary): Weapon Attack +20, accuracy -5, lasts for 5 minutes (stackable: 2 per slot)
       1. 1 Per slots(untradeable) seems fine for me, with the intension for players to not replace Rage buff totally as 'Use' slots are important in Boss runs.
       2. Keep +20 WA, Similar to leafre buff? yes, however it lasts way shorter and takes up more slots (pros n cons weigh off)
12. Gacha (rebalanced)
13. Increase lvl 80+ Glove (Job specific) slots from 5 -> 7
14.  Introduce Wheel of Destiny purchasable via HT NPC for meso (i.e. 5m) stackable up to 1-5 (replaces need for ress skill). Would only work in HT's 3 map and/or fade away after exiting cave. As HT is a 4th job intended boss, wheel of destiny can almost similarly replace Ress skill and considering the long run time, the chances of death is way higher.

Formula related

1. Increase level up HP gains from (20~24) to (25~30)
   • 4,062 HP before Hyper Body
     • Lvl 132+ (without HP gear)
       • save players 27 lvls worth
   • 5,937 HP before Hyper Body
     • Lvl 200 (without HP gear)
       • From Impossible to Possible, It'd be a nice reward for players whom attain lvl 200
   • Players should be compensated the HP loss, should this formula be applied.
2. Increase Use slots to 100
   • At some point in later v it'll be 72 slots but capping @ 100 would make it feel progressive voting wise and increases utility in long duration bossings.
   • Which also allows for individuals to attempt solo Zakum.
3. Increase M.Def and W.Def scalability/formula😘
   1. To a point where It'll be not better than HP scrolls but neither it being useless.
   2. Would benefit Deep Ludi/ Leafre grinds and especially warriors.
   3. Also Def skills (i.e Bless/ Iron wall/ Iron Body) could also be looked into and have more Scaling along with Def gear (Def bonus).

Skills related (4th only usable in horntail map)

1. Everyone
   • Hero's Will (1: To escape from abnormal condition, Cooldown: 10mins) To break free of Seduce
     • Got added to game, could reduce cooldown to 30s - 1min to replace the need of adding Holy Shield/ custom Dispel changes.
   • Echo of Hero(Weapon attack +4%, Magic attack +4% for 40 min, lvl 200 skill, stackable with buff)
     • Need confirmation if we'll get this.
2. Warrior
   • Stance (5: For 50Secs, prevent from getting Knock-backed with success rate 50%.)
     • Warriors skills mostly has a short reach, having to stand on the small platforms is essential for the wings/arms/head portion.
     • 50s and 50% rate does not seem too op, can be more.
3. Thieves
   • Hermit (choose 1 only)
     • Claw Mastery (20: from +200 extra stars to +600)
       • Purpose: to lower use slots dedicated to throwing stars
       • Assume: Shadow Partner always active: 4 stars per Lucky Seven
       • Estimated 70 to 80 casts in 120s (lowered due to knockback and repositioning)
       • Estimated 1,200 stars per slot + 600 Mastery), 6hrs duration, 12,600 Lucky Seven casts
       • Estimated 50,400 stars (old: 42 slots) = 50,400 / 1,800 = 28 use slots usage (new: 28 slots) 
     • Shadow Star (30: 200 stars for 120s)
       • Assume: Shadow Star always active
       • 70 casts = 280 stars used = (280 - 200): 80 stars saved per 120s
         • 1/5 of a slot used in 2mins
       • Estimated 1,200 stars per slot (hwabi/steely/tobi + 200 Mastery), 6hrs duration = 180 casts of Shadow Star = 36,000 stars
       • Estimated 12,600 Lucky Seven casts (w Shadow Partner)
         • = 50,400 stars used (42 use slots) = (50,400 - 36,000): 14,400 stars saved per 120s
         • 30 use slots usage (instead of 42 use slots dedicated to stars, saving 12 slots)
   • Chief Bandit
     • Smokescreen (30: 45secs, Range 200%)
       • helps with Meso Explosion and Pots consumption
4. Archer
   • Sharp eyes (30: 300secs, critical rate 15%, Damage 40%)
     • overall buff to DPS, esp hermits, at lvl 30 skill, does not seem too over powered, damage portion could be reduced.
5. Magicians
   • Priest
     •  Dispel: (+custom changes to allow dispel to work on seduce to replace the need for Holy Shield)
       • Big fan of this, will encourage more purpose and skills for priests.
          
     • Resurrection (30: 30mins cooldown)
       • Not a good option but when ranged jobs fall to the ground before Tail/Legs are alive and Mass Seduce is active, it's instant death, Ress would be a good leeway and with its long cooldown, seems feasible. Having Priest take timers of individuals death and try to Ress afew together in one skill, before the 10mins mark of being wrapped to town.
     • Holy Shield (30: For 40secs, temporarily protects all party members from abnormal conditions.) 😘
       • Holy Shield would not destroy the boss mechanics but encourage skilled priest players.
   • Summons (if we ever getting partial 4th job skills)
     • Pros: Would definitely increase mobbing and DPS for mages and some form of skill management.
     • Cons: Higher death rate to mages on summon when Black Wyvern is spawned.

Please feel free to leave your:

(1) Preferred picks
😘My top picks:
Boss: 1,4,5,10,14,15,17 
Item: 2,3,4,8
Formula: 2
Skills: Dispel

(2) suggestions and especially for those areas that lack input

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 30, 2021 by opman

[Tujou]

I really like that HT is just too far out of our reach right now. It's pretty exciting, and I think by leaving it as is keeps room to see new builds and leave the players the tools to develop a new meta rather than change the game to fit what we currently see as the "best" or "most efficient" way to play. Most players scroll their work gloves to have +watt but imagine a scenario where the WDEF increase from scrolling a higher level glove ACTUALLY matters enough.. like maybe because the wdef is necessary to survive a tough boss fight. That's one small example, but there are other avenues maplers can try to really overcome a challenge rather than make the challenge overcome itself.

[Bellocringe]

I think I'd like to see HT slain or nearly at least once in the server's life. I don't see that being accomplished without at least a couple tweaks. Even if it was pottable seduce and damage reduction nerfs, I would still call it a stretch to think HT could be taken down, just given how much of a slog the fight is with 3rd job dps. I think many of these suggestions are perfectly reasonable for a HT that is still tougher (relatively) than normal.

[opman]

6 hours ago, Tujou said:

I really like that HT is just too far out of our reach right now. It's pretty exciting, and I think by leaving it as is keeps room to see new builds and leave the players the tools to develop a new meta rather than change the game to fit what we currently see as the "best" or "most efficient" way to play. Most players scroll their work gloves to have +watt but imagine a scenario where the WDEF increase from scrolling a higher level glove ACTUALLY matters enough.. like maybe because the wdef is necessary to survive a tough boss fight. That's one small example, but there are other avenues maplers can try to really overcome a challenge rather than make the challenge overcome itself.

For WDEF to be viable to replace a W.ATT glove, you'd have to be in the hundreds region per scroll. I'd assume WDEF works on a flat basis and does not scale, hence approx 1 Def = - 1 W. Dmg or M. Dmg taken, using a 60% GFA worth +2 WA = at least 10 stats = at least 160 HP = at least 160 WDEF or MDEF. HT does both Physical n Magical damage and having 160 WDEF would only convert to 80 HP worth in gains. Since HP solves both Weapon and Magical damage, 160 HP acts as 160WDEF and MDEF, hence HP gears are superior in this context.

Even if so, it's very unlikely for players to switch to it as it'll only drag the duration of the run time and remember that we've limitations such as the above mentioned and lack of 'Use' slots to last players pots worth of 6hrs+ of potting session (thats similar to zakum at body stages and not how players would pot when grinding, 2 very big difference here). Not to mention if you're a Hermit carrying stars, even if other players hold reserve stars for hermits, they may not have sufficient potions for a 6hrs+ run. Most players don't even have enough slots for pots to last 6hrs of grinding, much less a heavier potting session over 6hrs.

Edited March 23, 2021 by opman

[Ghost]

I like how much thought you put into this, and I agree with a lot of things you said. Not really a fan of the monster book thing though, that sounds really OP.  Also don't really think HT should be nerfed much, if at all.  All nerfing does for bosses is lower the time it takes to kill.  It becomes "easier" because less time really means less chance of people dying or dcing.  HT shouldn't be made easier, but instead players should be made stronger.  

As of right now, there's a complete lack of scrolls for additional AP for things like earrings, helm, top and bottom, etc.  You can argue you just need to level up to get that AP, but when you approach end game and HT specifically that just isn't feasible.  Another major problem is that lvl 100 weps aren't being added to zak (not sure if Arnah confirmed that but that seems to be the case).  So we have players missing a significant chunk of weapon atk that would be acquired from lvl 100 and eventually 110 weps.  Lvl 100 weps aren't unobtainable, but they might as well be (1/500k rate lol).  That leads to my next point, which is these weapons will almost always be below avg and 60%ed to play it safe.  Basically we're missing out on a good 30-40 wep atk.  And that's fine I guess since these weapons are end game and shouldn't be easy to get.  But only a few players on the server, if even 1, will ever have a red craven, pinaka, nisrock, etc. 

Regardless of all that, many of the top players have simply stopped playing.  This is the reason why HT likely never will be killed.  Even if they kept leveling up and improving gear, it was always a snowball's chance in hell.  And we almost definitely won't see a wave of grinders come along to replace them.  Even if there was, it would be years before they got high enough level. We don't even know how much longer Phoenix will be open, which is demotivating to grind that hard for most people.

[opman]

8 hours ago, Ghost said:

As of right now, there's a complete lack of scrolls for additional AP for things like earrings, helm, top and bottom, etc.  You can argue you just need to level up to get that AP, but when you approach end game and HT specifically that just isn't feasible.  Another major problem is that lvl 100 weps aren't being added to zak (not sure if Arnah confirmed that but that seems to be the case).  So we have players missing a significant chunk of weapon atk that would be acquired from lvl 100 and eventually 110 weps.  Lvl 100 weps aren't unobtainable, but they might as well be (1/500k rate lol).  That leads to my next point, which is these weapons will almost always be below avg and 60%ed to play it safe.  Basically we're missing out on a good 30-40 wep atk.

I agree the issues u mentioned, however I feel that even if stats scrolls (Helm/ top / bottom n others) and lvl 100-110 weapons to be attained by players, would not very likely net an additional 30 WA or so. Considering only difference in gains, using Claws point of reference (other weaps may have different scaling due to skill/job multiplier)

Att Difference:
Casters (47 base + dex) to Craven (51 base + luk): +5 att
ZHelm 10 slot (any stats): 6x 60% pass = (+2) x (6) = +12 stats = +2 att
Top & Btm (14 slots vs Overalls 10 slots): +4  slot diff x 60% = (+2) x (4) = +8 = +1 att
-> Total Diff = +8 Att

If using Dragon Green Sleve instead:
Craven to Sleve (55 base + dex): +3 att
-> Total Diff = +11 Att

Even so having feedbacks from 4th job classes using 4th job skills for HT with Dragon items (30%s scrolled, White scrolled), there are tons of variables. However most squads follow an efficient and effective route to boss, they'd roughly take 1hr50mins+ on avg (excluding timeless/reverse weaps).

Unless we buff 3rd job skills or have insane rng scrolling or custom +30 and above buffs or unlimited players in map, just releasing dragon items and more gear stats scrolls would most likely not cut it by itself.

Update:
Added Formula
Added thorn(s) on platform for i-frame
Added Claw Mastery
Added 30% scrolls
Added Gear Stats scrolls (helm/top/btm/ear)

Update:
Added Increase 30 players per run cap to 60. (any higher and we'd face lagging issues with that many players and skills in 1 map)

Edited March 24, 2021 by opman

[Kradia]

I feel like what you're trying to do with your suggestions is make it possible to kill Horntail now. It doesn't have to be. Horntail is supposed to be an endgame boss. Definitely not a level 145 boss, which by the way would be only 5 levels higher than Zakum?

This is a 3rd job server so far. If the server is intended to stay 3rd job for a while, Horntail could just be adjusted to have less HP. A baseline could be set for what level all the different classes should be able to survive and the damage adjusted to that set baseline. A full squad of (30) players level 160+ should be able to beat Horntail. We definitely shouldn't be able to kill it now.

Changing formulas, "3rd job+" with some 4th job skills is just weird. No need to change the fundementals of the game.

[opman]

27 minutes ago, Kradia said:

I feel like what you're trying to do with your suggestions is make it possible to kill Horntail now. It doesn't have to be. Horntail is supposed to be an endgame boss. Definitely not a level 145 boss, which by the way would be only 5 levels higher than Zakum?

This is a 3rd job server so far. If the server is intended to stay 3rd job for a while, Horntail could just be adjusted to have less HP. A baseline could be set for what level all the different classes should be able to survive and the damage adjusted to that set baseline. A full squad of (30) players level 160+ should be able to beat Horntail. We definitely shouldn't be able to kill it now.

Changing formulas, "3rd job+" with some 4th job skills is just weird. No need to change the fundementals of the game.

well the suggestions are there for considerations should admin take interests in it and should not narrate and put fourth a tone of "kill horntail now" or a must in a change in formulas. Afterall we have different players with different objectives here and the admin one of course. Being It open for discussion, tweaks will have to be made to suggestions with numbers backing it of course. As u mentioned Horntail being lvl 145 may sound absurd, but have you thought of the damage reduction it gives to players if it was lvl 160 instead and the small handful of players above 140? Again, yes we can take it to note about the lvl of horntail, but with my top picks, i think more or less it wasn't overkill.

On 3/22/2021 at 10:35 PM, opman said:

😘My top picks:
Boss: 1,4,10,14,15 
Item: 2,3,4,8
Skills: none

 

Edited March 24, 2021 by opman

[Kradia]

4 minutes ago, opman said:

As u mentioned Horntail being lvl 145 may sound absurd, but have you thought of the damage reduction it gives to players if it was lvl 160 instead and the small handful of players above 100?

Yes I have thought about that, which is why I specifically say:

16 minutes ago, Kradia said:

A full squad of (30) players level 160+ should be able to beat Horntail. We definitely shouldn't be able to kill it now.

Just like Zakum was out for months before it was killable, there is no need for Horntail to be killable anytime soon. Maybe in a year or two, or however long it takes 30 players to get to level 160, which is Horntail's level. It's an endgame boss, not Zakum 2.0.

 

[Requiem]

On 3/24/2021 at 1:23 AM, Ghost said:

 All nerfing does for bosses is lower the time it takes to kill.  It becomes "easier" because less time really means less chance of people dying or dcing.  HT shouldn't be made easier, but instead players should be made stronger.  

 

Important.

I think that stuff like BWGs (its only 2 slots wtf) and other stuff should come, lv 64 aniv weapons not really because its too huge of a difference, but changing their level requirement to high level so they are not as insane for low levels, or making it hard to getfrom boss drops painus / papulatus / zakum, so there's even more of a reason to go bossing

Is it powercreep? hell yeah it is, fuck, its an mmorpg, stronger things should come that are better than the previous ones, its about balancing how OP is too OP (cider? maybe pac is too op cuz even if u fail all scrolls u would use it? its powercreep for sure, but PaC is an iconic item in any case? )

Edited March 25, 2021 by Requiem

[opman]

7 hours ago, Requiem said:

Important.

I think that stuff like BWGs (its only 2 slots wtf) and other stuff should come, lv 64 aniv weapons not really because its too huge of a difference, but changing their level requirement to high level so they are not as insane for low levels, or making it hard to getfrom boss drops painus / papulatus / zakum, so there's even more of a reason to go bossing

Is it powercreep? hell yeah it is, fuck, its an mmorpg, stronger things should come that are better than the previous ones, its about balancing how OP is too OP (cider? maybe pac is too op cuz even if u fail all scrolls u would use it? its powercreep for sure, but PaC is an iconic item in any case? )

Very unlikely that lv64 weaps will be released, since it competes very closely (maybe better) to dragon items and we lack stats scrolls for top/btm stats scrolls (additional 4 slots: +8 stats compared to overalls), making it harder to incentivize players to lvl100/110 weaps instead.

sins/dits/mage stand to gain the most for lv64 weaps, leaving behind the likes of warriors and bows.
For PAC, idk why but the nostalgic pure luk sins always have them in my mind, Brown Bamboo/ Dayo/ Bwg/ Snowshoe/ PAC. Maybe arnah shld add in gacha (mob drops ticket - untradable, remove op items) and release showa with ciders and anego (more mini bosses)😉

Updated/Edit:

On 3/22/2021 at 10:35 PM, opman said:

The goal here is to leave the mechanics/skills (looking out for animations/ utilizing job skills) of bosses intact so as to not turn it into a brain dead content by just pressing the attack skill throughout the run. I believe in not removing the skills casted by Horntail and just tweaking it to suit a survivable 3rd job gameplay. I strongly encourage a vanilla attempt on horntail before changes are to be made. In addition, we can take it as a strategic move should we decide to tweak horntail or items, simply having the idea of a 3rd job server with HT does not appeal at all to some new/existing players due to the large gap in terms of being Pragmatic on a 1x and yes if HT becomes successful, sure. I think we should first tackle having a more healthy and sustainable player-base retention that allows us to have higher turnover into higher lvls in the future.
This thread is made solely to consolidate ideas over lengthy period of time and help assist in any future tweaks deem necessary, rates of changes such as HT health, W/Mdef and others should not take much weightage of importance due to the lack of 3rd job runtime data.

Added BWG att comparison
Added Ciders (rebalanced)

Edited March 25, 2021 by opman

[opman]

On 3/25/2021 at 1:06 AM, Kradia said:

Just like Zakum was out for months before it was killable, there is no need for Horntail to be killable anytime soon. Maybe in a year or two, or however long it takes 30 players to get to level 160, which is Horntail's level. It's an endgame boss, not Zakum 2.0.

again, i'm pretty sure HT skills mechanics itself sets HT light years ahead of being just 'Zakum 2.0', let alone the health.

[Ghost]

On 3/24/2021 at 4:58 AM, opman said:

I agree the issues u mentioned, however I feel that even if stats scrolls (Helm/ top / bottom n others) and lvl 100-110 weapons to be attained by players, would not very likely net an additional 30 WA or so. Considering only difference in gains, using Claws point of reference (other weaps may have different scaling due to skill/job multiplier)

Att Difference:
Casters (47 base + dex) to Craven (51 base + luk): +5 att
ZHelm 10 slot (any stats): 6x 60% pass = (+2) x (6) = +12 stats = +2 att
Top & Btm (14 slots vs Overalls 10 slots): +4  slot diff x 60% = (+2) x (4) = +8 = +1 att
-> Total Diff = +8 Att

If using Dragon Green Sleve instead:
Craven to Sleve (55 base + dex): +3 att
-> Total Diff = +11 Att

Even so having feedbacks from 4th job classes using 4th job skills for HT with Dragon items (30%s scrolled, White scrolled), there are tons of variables. However most squads follow an efficient and effective route to boss, they'd roughly take 1hr50mins+ on avg (excluding timeless/reverse weaps).

Unless we buff 3rd job skills or have insane rng scrolling or custom +30 and above buffs or unlimited players in map, just releasing dragon items and more gear stats scrolls would most likely not cut it by itself.

Update:
Added Formula
Added thorn(s) on platform for i-frame
Added Claw Mastery
Added 30% scrolls
Added Gear Stats scrolls (helm/top/btm/ear)

Update:
Added Increase 30 players per run cap to 60. (any higher and we'd face lagging issues with that many players and skills in 1 map)

Sorry I shoulda been more clear about the ~30-40 atk missing estimate.  I meant it's highly unlikely we will ever see a really well-scrolled lvl 100 or dragon weapon, like you see on other servers.  People will play it safe instead of trying to land a 10% or 2, then finish with 60%s.  Even with the ample scarabs that have been around, it's rare to see a good one.  Regardless, I can see my estimate was off and realistically it'd be around ~15-20 atk, at best. 

Call if a safe ~10-15 atk per player and I think that still makes a huge difference.  I think 4 parties (24 people) can enter HT?  5 atkers per party = 20 total, so thats an additional ~200-300 weapon attack missing.  Also it's important to note that hermits will likely bring steelies and tobis only, so that's more attack lost (not significant, but still matters for DPM).  

Edited March 28, 2021 by Ghost

[Arnah]

Absolutely massive post.
Spoilers do exist but be warned they are a bit weird to deal with.

Nice to see you don't want to do any 4th job skills but one note. I have no plans to remove the level 200 skill so it will be available.... someday

 

For your suggested changes
Seduce has 1 change appliedf which makes it possibly decently easy to deal with? If that changes before Horntail is actually killed.. I have no idea
Boss 4 I think already exists but I haven't confirmed.
Boss 5 seems decent to me but not entirely sure.
Not a huge fan of a buff when entering horntail. The boss should just be adjusted rather then artificially increasing the users stats.
No good way exists to increase the players HP in this version without using the same system as hyperbody.. Which makes it so you can't have that buff + hyperbody. Can always work around such limitation but that sounds ugly.

 

Items 8 happens later and I'm still not a huge fan of accelerating changes that come later.
Items 6 Dislike, plus doesn't exist until 10+ versions later
Items 7 I'd rather do the idea of increasing slots of later level equips then having a low level work glove be BIS.
Items 4/5 has been suggested in a different way. Making Pianus give a HP cape, Ludi staying stat only.
Making HP scrolls better is fine to me but currently I'd prefer it to not really be a requirement.

Bunch of scroll stuff can happen in the future. I think kradia has mentioned v56 adds some new ones that are nice.

[opman]

On 3/28/2021 at 3:27 PM, Arnah said:

Absolutely massive post.
Spoilers do exist but be warned they are a bit weird to deal with.

Nice to see you don't want to do any 4th job skills but one note. I have no plans to remove the level 200 skill so it will be available.... someday

 

For your suggested changes
Seduce has 1 change appliedf which makes it possibly decently easy to deal with? If that changes before Horntail is actually killed.. I have no idea
Boss 4 I think already exists but I haven't confirmed.
Boss 5 seems decent to me but not entirely sure.
Not a huge fan of a buff when entering horntail. The boss should just be adjusted rather then artificially increasing the users stats.
No good way exists to increase the players HP in this version without using the same system as hyperbody.. Which makes it so you can't have that buff + hyperbody. Can always work around such limitation but that sounds ugly.

 

Items 8 happens later and I'm still not a huge fan of accelerating changes that come later.
Items 6 Dislike, plus doesn't exist until 10+ versions later
Items 7 I'd rather do the idea of increasing slots of later level equips then having a low level work glove be BIS.
Items 4/5 has been suggested in a different way. Making Pianus give a HP cape, Ludi staying stat only.
Making HP scrolls better is fine to me but currently I'd prefer it to not really be a requirement.

Bunch of scroll stuff can happen in the future. I think kradia has mentioned v56 adds some new ones that are nice.

Im not very clear if changes were made before or after, however, usually single seduce (most often in other servers, "Order of Entry"), as the mechanics for this is really interesting for players have to AVOID ARMS UNTIL THE END, unless accidentally aggroed. Having a random seduce could be workable (having a DK purposely aggro Left Arm and stay at the right side of HT, along with a priest to accompany to prevent death and occasionally hugging spawns for min dmg received and if necessary re-aggro left arm if someone else out damages the DK.

Also, lvl 200 ECHO is definitely something incentivizing, since it stacks % att bonus on existing +Att buff/pot.

I agree with not accelerating the item releases, mentions of 'release' as suggested will be assumed to be "maybe not exclude it in future/ unconfirmed" so as to give some possible sense of considerations for whomever not well versed with the maple bible (content releases). Adding HP cape drop to pianus does sound attractive to those whom req it, maybe not all but its a small step thats cool, considering there're some threads on making pianus worthwhile.

Boss: 14+15 removed
Item: 4 changed to 'Pianus HP Cape"
Item:5 removed
Item: 6 removed
Item: 7 changed to 13 (new suggestion)

 

[opman]

+  wheel of destiny and dispel

 

also kindly move this thread to discussion please and thanks.

Edited November 17, 2021 by opman

[opman]

+ Formula: More Def scaling along with Def skills.
+ Skill: Summons
+ Edit: Modified Hero's Will.

Edited November 29, 2021 by opman